PAT Testing

PAT, or Portable Appliance Testing, is one of my pet grumbles. Not the PAT itself, as a qualified PAT tester I understand the necessity for testing of equipment, but my grumble is about many of the people who carry it out. The television show, Rogue Traders, would have a field day with some of these people. However, before I start my rant I am sure there are all sorts of well respected, hard working, honest individuals out there who conduct tests honestly and reliably – but how do you tell the good ones from the bad?

In my experience, and I have seen a fair few of them at work, there are very few people carrying out PAT who really understand the requirement and the process. Often, PAT will be described by a potential supplier as a legal requirement when a PAT itself is not actually a legal requirement, it is simply a means to an end. The purpose of equipment testing is to provide a safe working environment and to be seen to be safe – quite often PAT requires little more than a visual check and it is important to know which test to apply under which scenario.

In the past I have had to escort one particular PAT testers off the premises as they had been cancelled yet still turned up on a Saturday morning when a production shift was in and they blagged their way into the offices. Once the job is done, they want to get paid right? Wrong mister.

Let me illustrate with an example. Our latest PAT tester was carrying out tests and labelling the devices with a test date two months prior to the date he was actually conducting the test. When I quizzed him about it he assured me all was ok and he was simply using the date when he had started PAT testing our equipment. He also told me it would be silly to put the actual test date on each label as that would make updating his computer records more time consuming. Hang on a minute, you are putting an invalid date on the test labels aren’t you? He eventually became shirty and stopped talking to me.

Now, he’s tested our Hewlett Packard A3 8150 duplex printer which I can tell you is a helluva large piece of equipment, heavy too which is why it has not been moved in the five years it has been in place. But there it is – all labelled up. But what is this? He had not tested the christmas lights on the christmas tree right by the printer. Now, which do you think is most likely to pose a health and safety hazard due to being moved as a portable appliance?

It also annoys me when they insist on fully testing double-insulated cables. They are double-insulated for lords sake. They do not need a full test – just a visual check to enure they are not physically damaged. But no, lets disconnect everything – blast it on his DESTROYER1000, or whatever it is called, piece of testing equipment that he lumbers around. I cannot begin to tell you the number of monitors that have been popped over the years as a result of the DESTROYER1000. Co-incidence? I do not think so.

Brand new equipment, it has all been tested. Brand new equipment does not need testing for its first 12 months of life. Come on, read the flippin’ paperwork will you.

He has tested my laptop power lead and the other laptop power leads he can see. This is the power lead on the floor, not the one in my laptop bag, nor the one at home in my home study. Same goes for everyone else in the office with a laptop. So how safe are we I wonder? Where was was the question – do you have any other cables with these devices?

Oh, and he is paid ‘piece work’ so thank you very much for mentioning the christmas lights and extra leads – I will get onto them right away. The next morning I am left with non-working equipment. Equipment that has not been plugged back in, routed back into place, and equipment that does not work any more for some ‘strange’ reason that is left for me to deal with. The number of trip hazards has increased massively as the tester seems to feel it is out of their remit to put the equipment back where they found it.

And guess what, it will not be a year before he is back – because he has mislabelled the equipment. He, or one of his colleagues, will be back in nine months time for another pocket full of cash.

There really should be some check or regulation in place to ensure the people we rely on to ensure our equipment is safe are actually qualified, experienced and knowledgeable enough, to do the job.

  • John Harbutt

    I can only agree with many of your comments but we carry out 4m test each year and most if not all are required and would be incorrect to say we don’t have problems but 99.99% of our testing goes very well with the client very happy. We ahve 120 engineers on the road pat and fixed wire testing yes this is a bit of an ad sorry http://www.epsilontest.com

  • Jason

    Thx for the feedback. I’ve actually picked up some useful tips from your website and will progress them internally. JS.

  • gary clark

    Interesting comments and you do have a point,unfortunately they dont pay these guys as much as you think,so they have to test hundreds of items just to get a worthwhile wage.I wish employs would look at the long term effects of under paying people.If the tester only had to test a smaller amount of items and got payed a better rate he may actually care and do the job properly,tut tut when will people learn.By the way You MUST test double insulated items,not for the earth(doesn’t have one)but to perform an insulation resistance test,this makes sure the pvc on the cables doesnt break down when current is draw thru it under working condtions,so this isnt a scam i have to say.

  • http://www.jasonslater.co.uk jasonslater

    Thanks for the point on the double insulation Gary! And you are right about the low pay – I would much rather pay more money to get a better job done – most of the PAT testers we have used have been self employed. Some PAT testers will charge around 2 pounds to visually check a standard IEC 320 cable whereas a new cable is not much more to buy.

    Mind you I’ve since become a qualified PAT tester and I have to tell you that its pretty shocking how seemingly straightforward it is to get the qualification – I have absolutely no electrical experience or qualifications yet I walked both exams with almost top marks (thought I did put a lot of work in and the training was pretty mind numbing). That said, one person on the course failed and they had 20+ years electrical experience!?

  • http://www.powersonic-online.co.uk Mark Allison

    Hi all, interesting blog.

    Some comments I can agree with but I would suggest you review you testing providers.

    At no stage should they ever enter site without managment approval, it would invalidate any insurance cover for the work.

    I agree PAT testers should all be paid per hour as we do. I am keen to keep our engineers and office staff on a per hour basis. We offer no incentive to test to quickly, infact we discurage this practice. This also stops rogue item creation and stops false test results.

    It has been known in the industry for guys to test the same IEC lead 50-100 times and claim to have tested a full office full.

    To be paying £2.00 per visual on an IEC is ridiculus.
    We are very cometetive see http://www.powersonic-online.co.uk to look at the rates you can pay.

    Just because a service is affordable and sensible shouldn’t detract from the testing service taking place. You should also make sure you get a full report on all works with testing dates/engineer details etc. Most reputable firms offer this.

    Its a fact of business that rogue traders are in operation. PAT testing is no different to car dealerships or garages plus many other areas of business. That doesn’t mean we are all bad though.

    Infact some of us really want to make a safety difference to everyone. In the end it could save a life which carries no price.

    You might like to read our blog at http://www.powersonic-online.co.uk/About/About.htm

    Thanks and keep this blog going, its good somebody has raised this issue.

    Power Sonic Ltd

  • Hugh

    Is this or is this not a scam? I’d like to know.

    PAT testers, paid by item, are “testing” or at least claiming to test, Class 3 items, such as music keyboards which run off 10 V DC.

    Obviously the PSU which powers the keyboard needs testing, but surely not the keyboard?

    The IEEE booklet which recommends how often various categories of equipment should be tested omits Class 3 altogether.

    Schools in my area are, in my opinion, paying out good money to unscrupulous contractors.

  • http://www.actest.co.uk Louis

    Hello all, great discussion!

    Hugh I totally sympathise with you on the testing of extra low voltage items. Unfortunately, you are not alone. I consider the testing of such items a fraudulent practice. If you would like more information about this please take a look at my e-book, it’s free and you can access it by visiting http://www.actest.co.uk and clicking the “blue e-book” button.

  • http://www.jasonslater.co.uk jasonslater

    Louis,
    Thanks for the joining in the discussion – PAT testing is an important area that often gets overlooked and as a result we end up paying more than we probably need to.

  • http://www.pastltd.co.uk Alan Moore

    Extra low voltage items do not get pat tested at any time, but you will find people in offices ask for them to be done and when you explain to them they insist you put a sticker on them, i just add a sticker but do not registar the itrm on the registar. If you feel the need for pat testing is unjustified then ask a recent client of mine, had a arsonist in nad caused £750,000 worth of damage, insurance assor asked for pat test records first then fire test certs next. he was looking for a way not to pay up, i now have a very happy client glad to have pat testing done.

  • http://www.avonpat.co.uk Bob

    I recently worked on a site near Bristol, the previous year they had a fire, £140,000 of damage which was traced to a faulty heater, as it turned out the heater was on product recall due to a manufacturing fault. The tester in the previous year tested and passed it but was unaware of any such recall notice on it, had they not had their appliances tested, the client would have lost their business.
    I work as a PAT tester to supplement my earnings as a foster carer and although I am tooting my own trumpet, I am scrupulously honest in my dealings and am astounded & faintly embarrassed that any tester could get away with charging £2.00 for a visual check of an appliance.
    I have been into offices and schools where certain appliances have been tested when (to me) they should never have been tested due to being low voltage, and I have pointed this out to the client and on occasion been met with indifference, my conscience is clear, as for stickers ? if they are not current I throw them away. I know my work is satisfactory and reasonably priced as clients have re booked me already, but it’s tough to find work when you are just a small business.
    I have passed work out to other test companies because it was too far away to be viable at my prices & have been lucky if I get a thanks for it but as I said before, I sleep easy at night.

  • Tony

    Hi
    I was trained as a PAT tester when I work at Bath University and therefore have a good understand of the process. When we carried out a check of the equipment in my department we found a large number of faulty heaters and desk fans.
    Working again in the private sector we have used London Pat Testing to carry out the work on our office equipment and found them to be a great firm. I guess you need to speak to friends and family and see if you can get a good steer from them.

  • http://www.vindico.ie Christian

    Hello there,

    Very interesting discussion on the issue of PAT Testing.
    We, VINDICO, are PAT Testing service providers in Ireland.
    PAT Testing is now a legal requirement in Ireland since 01/11/07.
    It has placed an extra layer of cost on business but at the same time it provides the client with peace of mind from the perspective of fire/electrocution risk.
    It seems more and more insurers are asking for it as mandatory, which I believe is the correct way to proceed.
    One aspect of fire risk that many businesses do not consider is the opportunity cost to the business in the intervening period between the occurance of a fire and the recommencement of full trading.
    Many business, particularly SMEs do not have Business Interruption (BI) Insurance. This means that they may suffer enormous cost when attempting to get going again after a fire.
    Even if they do have BI Insurance the reality is that their customers cannot necessarity wait around for them to get back on their feet again and get back into full capacity. Therefore even if the BI Insurance does pay out your customers may have moved on by the time you are ready to meet their orders again.
    Basically what I am trying to say is that the cost of PAT Testing is minute versus the overall cost to a business of a fire, even a relatively small one.
    None of the above even considers the human/financial cost in the event of an electrocution to a member of staff or member of the public.

    In Ireland since 2005 Directors and Managers (even Line Managers such as H&S Reps) can be held personally responsible for transgressions of Health and Safety Legislation, particularly if they lead to a work place accident. This means that, not only can the business be fined, but they can as individuals also. The maximum penalties include imprisonment for up to 3 years.

    Do similar measures exist in the UK?

    If you are interested in more detail on the legal requirements for PAT Testing in Ireland please feel free to log onto our website: http://www.vindico.ie

  • Chris Spink

    Hi there

    I just wish to pick up on the point you made about the testing of ‘Brand New Equipment’
    I’ve done PAT testing for the past 8 years in schools and other council buildings throughout North Yorkshire and come across this problem many times before! When i first started out PAT testing i totally agreed with sites i worked in and never tested any of their Brand New appliances, it makes total sense that they should be safe really. But then i started getting called back to lots of sites to retest missed items as the HSE required me to do so! I then had a number of discussions with the HSE regarding this matter and the way they look at it is this:
    It is up to the site to prove that an appliance is safe, not the manufacturer. How does a site do this?? Get the appliance PAT tested! If a site burns down due to a faulty appliance, regardless of whether or not the appliance is Brand New, the first thing the insurance company will want to know is if its been PAT tested and want to see records of this. If you haven’t your insurance will be invalid in most cases.
    So now i tell every site i work in what i have been told be the HSE, in most cases they’re ok with this but you still get the odd site that stamps their feet, in that case i get them to sign on my paperwork that they didn’t require me to test their new equipment. That way they’re happy and i’ve covered my back so i’m happy too.
    Hope this is of help to some PAT testers out there

  • http://www.jasonslater.co.uk jasonslater

    Hi Chris, thanks for joining the discussion – you make a valid point. The problem seems to be around inconsistency and lack of definitive guidelines so everyone is pretty much left to make their own decisions on what should/shouldn’t be tested.

  • http://www.highlandappliancetestingltd.co.uk andykearns

    Interesting point that Chris Spink has made as regards to new items being tested. Surely if an item is under guarantee from a manufacturer it should have passed their own quality inspections which would have included much more stringent tests than we as PAT testers do. If it was found to be faulty or damaged this surely would be the manufacturers problem in that the said appliance would not be fit for purpose. The IEE guidelines initial testing frequency also would contradict what the HSE have said as most items don’t have to be tested for the first 12 months of their lives. I’m pretty certain that a proof of purchase for a new item would be sufficient to prove in court that every reasonable care has been taken by the company to prevent danger.
    As regards to earlier postings on low voltage testing items below 50 volts do not need testing. Any company out there doing this stop giving us decent companies who are trying to make a living a bad name. If you do a decent job and get a good base of customers you can make a living without ripping people off.

  • http://www.techniquetraining.co.uk/courses/city&guilds/2377_11.html Abhi

    Hi all nice discussion :)

    What i can add here is there are various PAT courses available all over UK. Cheers!

  • http://www.pat-training-now.co.uk Ian

    I agree Andy, I have recently trained a company that have been charged huge amounts for PAT testing items below 50v. If that wasn’t bad enough the records that they left were even more shocking. They had Class 1 items with the earth continuity as N/A (we are talking toasters, extension leads and IEC leads. Many readings were fails marked as passes. I guess as in all walks of life there is good, honest people and the rest…….

  • http://www.highlandappliancetestingltd.co.uk andykearns

    I worked for one of the major PAT testing companies about 10 years ago testing many hospitals. It was standard to put a label on everything. I even came across them on nurse call buzzers. Out of 10 engineers that I came across whilst working for them I was the only one who was actually qualified to C+G 2377. As far as the class 1 earth continuity the only time this should happen is if the exposed earth cannot be accessed i.e. oscillating fan, transformer box.
    I did a job in November wth 1500 items. The ELECTRICIAN last year who was NAPIT registered did the testing in a day and a half without a machine. Apparently he pulled the plugs out and checked if the live and neutral pins were sleeved. This was the full appliance check.

  • Dave Enamu

    I have to correct you on one point P.A.T is a legal requirement it,s part of a businesses fire risk assessment (2005 REGULATORY REFORM ORDER) fire safety so whether you like it or not it,s here to stay.

    • http://www.jasonslater.co.uk jasonslater

      Dave, thanks for joining the discussion. I have been through the 2005 Regulatory Reform Order (at http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2005/20051541.htm) but I cannot see any direct reference to a requirement for any portable appliance test (PAT) – could you indicate which section you are referring to. I think everyone pretty much agrees about a safe work environment – which includes risk assessment and sensible testing however it is the actual PAT requirement itself which is in question.

  • http://www.highlandappliancetestingltd.co.uk andykearns

    P.A.T does not exist in any law. PAT testing companies have created this problem themselves over the years by using the term PAT instead of appliance testing. In-service testing and inspection of electrical appliances is carried out in most cases using a portable appliance tester (PAT). Realistically other test instruments can be used therefore the term PAT should not be used.
    The IET themselves use the term inappropriately in their guidelines which creates more confusion and also the use of the words maintain and competent person opens up so many loopholes. The recommended timescales between tests are also problematic when companies are trying to save money wanting PC s tested every 5 years but other items annually etc. Appliances can easily get missed.
    It would be much better if there was a law that stated that In service testing and inspection of ALL (not just portable) electrical appliances between 110V and 415V should be carried out using a calibrated portable appliance tester by a qualified person annually.
    The plumbing industry have managed it, the fire industry have and the electrical industry have managed to do it within the scope of Part P. If the appliance testing industry got together there would be a lot more work out there for us all.

  • http://www.crown-forge.co.uk Dave J

    Hi Guy’s, great discussion.

    Let me start by saying that we can all bang on all day about what legislation states what, and what should and shouldn’t be tested. At the end of the day, you know and I know what insurance companies are like when it comes to a claim against them and if a company has not had their P.A.T done with ACTUAL TEST RESULTS available to issue to the insurance company, their insurance will be void, and if a claim was put in the insurance company would take you to the cleaners.

    A lot of companies out there are giving us P.A.T testers a bad name and the problem now is that there are so many people offering P.A.T at such a ridiculous price that the only way they can profit is by cutting massive corners. P.A.T ‘checks’ seem to be the latest craze in the industry. This is where the testing is done on a cheap peice of kit that does not download, therefore there is no access to actual test result readings, therefore there is no evidence the actual testing was ever even carried out!! This blows my mind how some companies can offer this as a legitimate service! I actually saw a company advertised on google and it was http://www.pat-from-79p.co.uk!!! this is giving our indusrty a bad name and these companies should hang their heads in shame. An honest P.A.T tester should not exceed 15o tests per day, this leaves companies offering P.A.T under around £1.10p per appliance ‘cowboys’ when you take into consideration wages, cost of fuel, labels, tester calibration… I’ll let you guy’s do the maths!!!

    Wish they would just pass a law that states P.A.T must be done by law and it would save a lot of bother.

  • http://www.highlandappliancetestingltd.co.uk andykearns

    Disagree with the down-loadable machine comment. I use both a seaward prime-test 220 and a seaward prime-test 350. I find the 220 easier in most cases to use as its not full of different menus and I can write the description and results down faster than typing the item description and location into the machine. My better half types up the results as she is fast at typing. I can agree in principal with the 150 tests per day but what happens when you do an IT block with boxes of IEC leads. One of my customers has a room which I test year in year out with over 1000 IEC leads in boxes. I do a lot more than 150 per day in that room. (I am not a cowboy). I know where you are coming from though. The number of tests can vary from job to job depending on how many moulded plugs are used, cleanliness of the site and the accessibility.
    It seems that a PAT certificate is now a criteria to get an alcohol license now so things are improving for us. If we all bombard the IET with e-mails to push PAT forward maybe in time it may become law. AND STOP CHARGING A PITTANCE. Even heard of a company in Manchester charging 45 pence per item. I think he went under. Good riddance.

  • http://www.crown-forge.co.uk Dave J

    OK, you’ve got me on that one!! We too carry out P.A.T for large I.T based companies who hand us a box of leads and say there you go, and in that sense yes, you will carry out more than that. But as ageneral rule our city & guilds qualified engineers carry out around 150-170 a day.

    Back to the downloadable issue, I just personally feel that a customer is mad to not insist on having the test result readings at their request should anything happen. I am sure you are not a cowboy (andykearns) the fact you are checking these sites suggests so, but if you don’t download results then if somebody gets an electric shock both you and the customer can print off a certificate PROVING that that peice of equipment was tested correctly with all the test results on it? (everyone covered basically)Maybe something to bare in mind.

    On the cost side, we are now faced with losing a council contract because someone has offered to do it for 60p per test… yes a council!! You would expect a council to be putting quotes like that straight in the bin but they are suggesting we match it! Then again we have seen this week just how our country is being run these days and nothing would really surprise me any more!!

    You’re right, lets all bombard the IET and try and stop these people charging a pittance, it is so blatantly obvious they are just running around putting green stickers on equipment.

  • http://www.highlandappliancetestingltd.co.uk andykearns

    Have you offered a back-hander. Sure it would work to keep the contract.
    Surely on a procurement basis they should not base their decision purely on cost. Hopefully they will see sense. Maybe your NAPITT registration will work in your favour as well as I doubt the other company would be a member of any trade organisation. Hope all goes well for yourself.

    I have taken your comments on board re the down-loadable machine and agree totally with what you are saying Dave. I suppose initially it will slow me down but I dare say it will save on the admin though. Its the only time the other half is quiet when she has a few hours of typing to do.

    I have e-mailed the IEE and IET many times over the last few years but to no-avail. I decided to become a member but you have to have either a higher engineering qualification or a science degree to join so I am now nearing the end of a physics degree.

    Hopefully as a member I may get a reply.

  • Mick G

    Just going back to the point ref:- testing new equipment, having just passed City and Guilds 2377 pat testing surely you should have a customer record for adding new equipment when aquired then it should fall into testing/inspection sequense as recommended in the iee code of practice regardless of its age, after all Pat testing is’nt purely just electronically testing its also formal visual inspections as well, an item can be new one day and dropped the day after unbeknown to the tester it could show obvious exterior (insulation!) damage or unobvious interior electrical damage, Well thats what i think, Can someone tell me as in some cases formal visual inspections for some items perhaps at the same premises some times differ in frequency requirements for full inspection and testing, generally is there two different price levels, Finally as you know i’m a newby, can anyone suggest a good all round Pat Tester

  • http://www.highlandappliancetestingltd.co.uk andykearns

    Hi Mick G

    As regards testing new equipment.
    If an item is on the customers premises it is advisable to test it regardless of its age. If they buy new items in between the formal tests the guarantees should be kept by the company to prove that they are new. The manufacturers guarantee should cover any faults from a faulty design or component.
    As regards visual inspections this is in most cases down to the user of the equipment (although it doesn’t happen very often).
    Most of the time when carrying out a full test is spent on the visual inspection so I wouldn’t personally have seperate charges or time intervals.
    If you try to do the testing on an annual basis you will not be far out. (3 months building sites).
    As regards an all round tester. Depends what you want to spend. Seaward Primetest series are very good testers, handheld and the primetest 200 and above have the rcd trip time test built in which we should be doing now. You can pay from 350 upto 900 for the primetest series so look online for the best deals. The 900 pound models are excellent.
    Seaward Supanova’s are a good machine but are far too heavy for lugging around all day (unless I’m just getting old). Martindale do some very good manual machines although the trip test is not on them.
    Invest in a microwave leakage detector as well. There is no point testing a microwave if the seal has gone or the interlock failed. You may not see it on a visual. You only need a very basic one.
    Good luck with the pat testing.
    Don’t be disheartened if it is slow to get going. You will need approximately 150 customers (Unless they are big companies) to give you 30 to 40k a year. If you are marketing from scratch that will cost you about 7000 stamps.
    If you keep at it there is money to be made. Don’t waste your money advertising in the press or big adverts in the yell pages etc.

  • Mick G

    Hi andykearns.

    Thanks for that information and feedback, its always good to get it from people that are in the game, having studied information on various testers over the past few months, i think i might try and push the boat out and go seaward (excuse the pun).
    Thanx again Mick G.

  • http://www.pat-testing-expert.com PAT Testing Courses

    What a great discussion!

    PAT testing is not law, nor will it ever be. It’s mainly insurance companies who are driving the industry forward at the moment – many of our customers tell us that that they have checked the small print on their employers / public liability policy, and their cover isn’t valid if they don’t have their equipment PAT tested!

    For my own part I think it is a bit senseless for a firm of accountants to spend money testing their equipment every year, whilst the local garage (whose equipment gets hammered all day) doesn’t get around to it. On the other hand, if people could be persuaded to check their equipment for obvious damage, then there would be no need for PAT testing at all. The number of broken phone chargers we find (including those which have been ‘repaired’ with sellotape is incredible!

    There is a lot of competition in the industry at the moment, and this is driving prices for PAT testing through the floor. The companies charge so little per item, that they have to get through vast numbers of appliances just to make ends meet. No wonder they rush around putting stickers on, rather than carry out the full test.

    There are plenty of customers who are happy to accept these low prices (in the full knowledge that they are not getting a decent service) but fortunately for those of us who make a living from PAT testing, there are plenty more who are prepared to pay a decent price for a proper service.

  • pat

    i work for one of the largest pat testing co’s in uk tm facilities services ltd and of the 60 or so engineers around 50 do not test as the rate of pay per test around 35p would not be enough to earn a decent wage so you need at least 300 tests per day, managment know what is going on and turn a blind eye as its more money in their pockets too

  • http://www.highlandappliancetestingltd.co.uk andykearns

    Paying staff 35p per test is a disgrace. I have worked for one of the nationals in the past and left after 3 months due to many factors such as not providing me with plugtops or fuses to carry out the work to the required standards. The hierarchy of the testing company and in some cases the company that is having the testing done know what happens. I even had a go at one of the engineers oneday for accepting a run load value of 21A for a toaster. He had no idea what I was talking about until I proved his machine was faulty.

    As regards pricing, we have to make a living and we do have to live with the idiots who realistically are doing themselves out of money as well as ourselves.

    Maybe between ourselves we could promote pat testing as a group of companies, rather than individuals, only allowing companies who are deemed to be realistic with their pricing and quality to be allowed in. This way when potential customers search for prices they know that a minimun of say £1.00 per item is a realistic price to pay. If they query the prices with the idiots pricing point out the truths that happen.

    Depending on our locations throughout the UK work can be passed around between the group members if we ever get work in areas that we do not cover. As we have seen in the above posts one of the nationals has 60 engineers. I’m sure that we can get more than 60 independants to join forces as group members therfore giving each and every one of us national coverage without buying into franchises.

    Andy.

  • http://www.highlandappliancetestingltd.co.uk andykearns

    Hi PAT Testing Courses

    Did you have anything to do with the natinal company that was based in Beverley.

    Andy.

  • http://www.pat-testing-expert.com PAT Testing Courses

    Hi – I didn’t have any connection with them, but I do know who you mean!

    Why do you ask?

  • http://www.highlandappliancetestingltd.co.uk andykearns

    I had a spell working for them and spent most days attempting to train some of the muppets they employed. I didn’t realise that all corners were round until I worked for them.

  • http://www.crown-forge.co.uk Dave J

    Andy,

    I like the sound of the collaboration idea, I’ll be in touch through your website shortly.

    Any other companies out there want in??? I’m forever quoting for customers who have sites all over the country, and could really do with some colleagues to pass the work on to.

  • http://www.jasonslater.co.uk jasonslater

    Hi everyone, I have to admit the training for PAT was a little strange as it seemed geared more towards getting people through the exam rather than teaching the important aspects of PAT testing – but thats just my penny worth.

    The collaboration idea sounds great. It might help to understand where you are based and what areas you typically cover?

  • http://www.crown-forge.co.uk Dave J

    Hi again guy’s

    I agree with the PAT trainig, the city and guilds to be fair was really hard, with a couple of our lads failing the first time. Very focussed on electrical info that you do not actually need to pat test which meade the exams a lot harder than they acrually need to be, and as Jason said, probably 50% of it was not actually to do with P.A.T testing itself.

    Ok, we are a company based in York/Leeds and we cover nationwide contracts, although like I said,it would be handy to pass some work on for area’s above Newcastle and below Birmingham???

  • http://www.highlandappliancetestingltd.co.uk andykearns

    Hi Dave J,

    We are a company based on the West Coast of Scotland near to the Isle of Skye. We cover all of the Highlands and Islands and are prepared to travel anywhere throughout the UK obviously if the no. of items commits. Any work in the Highlands involves at least a 60 mile drive so we get used to it. (We don’t have traffic jams up here though so we are lucky).

    I personally hold my 17th edition qualification and 2391 inspection and testing cert. We also test emergency lighting and fire alarms although the PAT testing is an easy life.

    I will be taking the FETA exam later in the year so that I can service fire extinguishers again. I have the facility to carry out thermographic surveys although I only have the manufacturers training course not the EN1 thermography certificate.

    Anywhere in Scotland can be covered quite easily by ourselves but we have contracts as far afield as Lancashire and Gloucester.

    I’m sure that as a united group we will be able to help each other and get contracts that we could’nt even look at due to logistics involved. Lets pool our knowledge and expertise. It can work.

    E-mail myself if you have any ideas

    Andy Kearns

  • http://www.pat-testing-course.net PAT Testing Training

    I would advise people to stay away from the major contracts at the moment – at least until the recession is over. The big retailers are used to paying 70p per item and there is no point in anything other than a massive company doing that job for that price (especially if it’s a national contract involving lots of travelling.)

    I know the big companies have engineers in every town, and that (combined with economy of scale) makes it just about possible to get around every site within the budget. I will admit though that I believe most of the engineers are under such pressure to ‘get the numbers in’ that they don’t test properly, if at all.

    My experience is that there is still plenty of work out where the client expects a decent service, and is prepared to pay a decent price. I will leave the massive retailers, big hotel chains etc for the time being though.

    It is only a matter of time before somebody gets killed from a dodgy fridge in a supermarket, and the PAT testing industry will be turned on its head. Just make sure you’re on the right side of the line when it’s drawn down the middle of the industry!

  • http://www.pat-testing-course.net PAT Testing Training

    I saw an interesting article on a Stage lighting Forum recently.

    Essentially, the boss of a stage lighting company was smashing up some old stage lights which were no longer required.

    The young guy who worked there was astounded – he pointed out that they would be worth a few quid on eBay.

    The old guy said – ‘If we sell these on eBay we might make a few quid today, but some bugger will buy them – and then they’ll set up a company in competition with us! They’ll be cheaper than us (because they’ve got old lights and not paid much for them) and that will drive the prices down across the industry!’

    Interesting comparison with the PAT testing industry, where everybody is undercutting everybody else to the point that nobody is making any money!

    If only there was a way to get everybody to raise their prices by 50% – we’d all end up doing the same amount of work, but we’d be earning more for doing it!

  • James A Daly

    Hi
    My inqiury is where do i start would like to get my city and guilds qualification but is it recognised in Ireland .In the 1980′s City and Guilds was the only way forward will be in the UK in Late August until the the start of September in Newcastle I am willing to Travel if need be to attend training day any sugesstions and the blog is great
    Thanks again

  • http://www.jasonslater.co.uk jasonslater

    James, thanks for joining in the conversation. If it is of any use I did my PAT 2377 certification at Lockwell in Tewkesbury http://www.lockwell.co.uk/default.aspx?id=306827

    However, there are plenty of other options – the others here will no doubt suggest some alternatives.

  • http://sepattest.com richard

    just a few points

    yes IEC leads should NOT only be visualed and have an insulation test- but they also should be polarity tested- I have carried out over 200,000 tests in my time- and i have failed around 100 iec leads on polarity- this also suggests you should test NEW equipment(because a polarity test will fail from day one)- WHAT IS THE POINT IN pat testing if it is not carried out probally.

    class 3 appliances do not need to be tested- but the ac adaptor and the seperate lead(if it has one) going into it should be- cables get changed around thats obvious, many firms dont check fuses or carry out repairs- whats the point in that….(imagine you test an item its fine- but it has the wrong rated fuse- its not safe – simple)- pat testing saves lives and insurance claims. do not mock the industry- yes there are many rouges out there – just come to me- i have run a company for 5 years- yet still check on my engineers work twice a week- no one else can provide that

    http://www.southeastpattesting.com

  • http://www.highlandappliancetestingltd.co.uk andykearns

    Is it a sales forum now using unjustified statements such as “no one else can provide that”. A few points from me to southeastpattesting.
    There is no dispute from any of us that IEC leads need to be tested thoroughly. Neither is there a dispute as to whether or not a new item should be tested. A manufacturers quality check involves all the tests that we perform plus hi-pot testing. If a customer purchased an appliance in-between a testing regime the manufacturers warranty would cover any liability (as the machine has been tested) just as our own insurance would cover us. If the company allowed someone to set up the machine who was not competant to do so and was injured as a result that is a seperate issue.
    SELV items DO need to be visually checked for damage to casings etc although we shouldn’t charge for this. Imagine a jagged piece of plastic sticking into your hand. It would hurt and render the company liable to a potential claim.
    As regards polarity checks. Many PAT testing machines automatically check the polarity of the appliance. Another consideration is the polarity of the installation itself which should also be checked within the risk assessment of the site

  • http://www.highlandappliancetestingltd.co.uk andykearns

    Message for James A Daly

    I qualified using a company in Oldham Greater Manchester called Premier Training. They also have a branch in Leeds. They were very good and competitve with their pricing. Looking at the c&g website the courses look the same. I would check with them first. City and Guilds Ireland are based in DMG Business Centre, 12 Camden Row, Dublin 8.

    Good Luck.

    Andy

  • James A Daly

    Hi All
    would like say thanks for the pointers and am looking forward to the trainer and have taken on board all the comments thanks again for all help and will stay in touch with the blog and take it handy ok

  • http://www.jasonslater.co.uk jasonslater

    One of the things I have concerns about regarding PAT Testing is how to go about testing, or advising about testing, personal equipment bought into the business on a regular basis. This equipment may include PDA, Laptop, Mobile Phones, Calculators, MP3 Players, and other devices which will often be accompanied by their related chargers.

  • http://www.pat-testing-plymouth.co.uk PAT Testing Plymouth

    Look out for NICEIC approved for Electrical Testing and Inspection.

    Our current testers are 2/3rds electricians, who also carry out electrical inspections of fixed wiring.

    Most of them are currently moving from NAPIT to the NICEIC, as they’re more widely recognised.

    We’ve tested places where the company has paid 25% (at least £1,000 in one case) in the past due to other companies charging to test both the item and it’s IEC lead as two separate items, rather than charging to test both as one item.

    • http://www.jasonslater.co.uk jasonslater

      That’s a good point about testing the two items separately (the cable and the device), this has happened in our case.

  • Del

    On our site we use a Robin smartpat 5500 tester and don’t have any adaptor for testing laptop leads or phone chargers etc with smaller connectors…. Having checked the Robin site for accessories, the only adaptor they have (which we’ve got) is for Kettle leads i believe.

    How would we go about testing laptops etc with smaller connectors, or are they of low voltage meaning not applicable. I would have thought if there was a need then Robin would sell an accessory???

    Saying that though, having read this thread, people refer to laptop leads being tested…..?

    Sorry for my ignorance but client has asked the question, and one of my staff carries out the actual testing but says he has no way to test such things.

    Thanks

    Del

  • http://www.crown-forge.co.uk Dave J

    Hi again guy’s.

    Are you really telling me you DON’T check leads seperately? First of all our testers have an actual socket for IEC leads as they need to be tested for polarity (along with extension leads) It also quite clearly states in the IEE code of practice for electrical testing that all appliances with seperate leads, must have the appliance and lead tested seperately. The city & Guilds course will also tell you this is common practice. So companies (like mine) are not testing leads to make more money (although I won’t complain that it does) but we are simply following the rules laid out by City & Guilds and IEE.

    Del, any laptop leads or phone chargers etc which are low voltage, still need testing for Insulation, therefore a low voltage class 2 I.T test (100ma) is sufficient for these types of equipment.

    Cheers, Dave.

    Jason, we basically advise our customers to have all items tested, even if it is personal stuff brought in as they could be putting the company at risk for being lible if something happened (electric shock or fire etc) At the end of the day, we are brought in to make sure the company is in a safe working environment but if someone brings in a peice of equipment which is unsafe it puts everyone else at risk.

  • http://www.highlandappliancetestingltd.co.uk andykearns

    Items brought in by employees

    If an item is in a business premise it is classed as being part of the electrical system of that business regardless of ownership. It is down to the business to prevent staff from bringing personal equipment into the premise. This even includes our PAT tester.
    As regards testing leads separately
    An item with a detachable lead is classed as a cord set and has to be treated as 2 seperate items.
    Common sense should prevail.
    For example

    A fig 8 mains lead powering a radio would be tested as 1 item (lead and radio)
    An IEC lead which could potentially be used on many different items with different fuse ratings would be tested seperately. As well as the safety for the business we have to cover our own arse. If this say 5amp lead is used for powering a kettle and an accident occurs this problem will become ours. I doubt very much if the company will accept liability if they can blame our testing.

    Any item below 50 volts ac does not need any kind of testing. It should be inspected

    As regards the question re the laptop leads.

    A company called CPC do several adapters which you can make a fly lead up to test the rounded IEC leads. A standard IEC lead can be tested in the same way as a kettle lead. The only difference between these leads is the temperature rating of the lead themselves. The kettle lead is classed as hot and the iec is cold. The lead needs testing but the laptop just needs an inspection which really shouldn’t be charged for.

    As regards NICEIC registered companies.
    The NICEIC has no say in the charging structure of any company neither would they advise them to test more than is required. To become NICEIC accredited you have to prove that you know how to test. If a cord set is not tested seperately you are in breach of the IEE code of practice 3rd edition and would be classed by NICEIC as incompetent.

    Page 78 IEE Code of Practise

    An appliance with a detachable power supply should be tested with the cord set plugged into the appliance
    The cord set should be labelled and then tested seperately from the appliance as follows:
    a 3 core cord set should be tested as a class 1 appliance
    a 2 core cord set should be tested as a class 2 appliance

    The following inspections and tests should be made:

    Visual inspections
    Class 1- earth continuity,polarity and insulation checks
    Class 2- polarity and insulation checks

    The reason that the cord set is inspected and tested separately from the appliance is that the cord set could be used during the course of the next period to supply a different appliance

  • http://www.crown-forge.co.uk Dave J

    Andy,

    With that in mind, then why would you test a radio and radio lead as one appliance if it is a detachable lead?

  • http://www.highlandappliancetestingltd.co.uk andykearns

    The radio and mains lead are class 2 therefore only an insulation test would be carried out. The mains lead cannot be tested without the radio whereas an iec lead can be tested independantly of the appliance. A visual check would be carried out on both but I would not charge for 2 seperate tests but I do charge for 2 in the case of iec leads and their appliances. It is 2 seperate tests but they can be tested as one (if you know what I mean).

  • http://www.crown-forge.co.uk Dave J

    I understand that a class 2 appliance or cord set only has insulation to test for, but as you have quoted from teh IEE code, a 2 core cord set should be tested seperately as a class 2 appliance.

    Interesting stuff this!!!

  • http://www.highlandappliancetestingltd.co.uk andykearns

    I think this is where fairness to customers and commonsense come into play rather than by the book 100%. A 2 core cord set can be only tested seperately by means of visual inspection. One part of the set needs the other to be connected to test the insulation unlike the 3 core cord set in which both parts can be tested seperately and different results obtained,
    It is two tests in effect on a 2 core set but I personally wouldn’t charge as two tests although I would describe the lead and appliance details to avoid any comeback.
    I won’t quote the book anymore. Sorry, My head is bowed down in shame.

  • James Daly

    Andy
    Done my training in ireland with pat esting Ireland it was an intresting day andc raised alot of questions but alot of good questions .i have strarted negotiating for a searward supernova plus kit five and hope to be able to develop more skills and looking forward to a change any advice on good practice to start with

  • http://www.pat-testing-expert.com/training PAT Testing Course

    I think we need to mention (again) that this is really an argument against BAD PAT testing, rather than PAT testing per se.

    Many companies (including mine) go to a lot of trouble to make sure that the equipment is tested properly, and is working properly afterwards too! That means that if we ask somebody to shut down their computer so we can test it, we turn it back on afterwards! We always tidy up after ourselves, and we work around our customers.

    Of course we CAN do this because we charge them a realistic price.

    If, we were charging them 70p per item, then I expect we would be charging round the office, looking for anything remotely electrical we can put a sticker on. We wouldn’t go rummaging through cupboards (or ask our customers what other equipment they had) because that would waste time.

    Like all things, you get what you pay for. Unfortunately there are plenty of cowboys out there charging ridiculously low prices for ‘PAT testing.’ But I dont think the customers can really complain if they employ one of these companies and then are unhappy with the service they get.

    I am convinced it is only a matter of time before somebody gets killed in an office or supermarket, and the industry will be turned on its head. Until then, all we can do is continue to do a good job, and hope that there are still enough customers who are prepared to pay a realistic price for a decent service.

    Tim James

  • http://www.highlandappliancetestingltd.co.uk andykearns

    Following on from what Tim James has said.

    My advice to any new pat tester is to be realistic with their pricing and do a thorough job. Rely on your senses when pat testing i.e. Visual inspection and touch. Make sure everything is in one piece and appears safe before pat testing. The best machine in the world will not pick up many of the faults that an appliance may have. As Tim says. If you rush around the office you will miss items. A missed item could kill someone.
    I saw a pat tester the other day performing a function test before the pat test. Why I don’t know.
    Best practice
    Visually inspect your pat tester and check ALL leads then onto the appliance.

    Visual, visual, visual, check the location to see if the appliance is suitable, check the socket that the appliance is plugged into, then test, then function test. Continuity test first then insullation test. Dont forget the polarity and fuse rating.

    Andy

  • http://www.pat-testing-expert.com PAT testing

    I agree, there is no substitue for a good visual inspection.

  • mark l

    hi there i have just started pat testing and started doing an insulation test every time i do it reads at 19.99ma what im i doing wrong
    yours
    m ark l

  • http://www.highlandappliancetestingltd.co.uk andykearns

    Hi Mark i

    I take it that it is 19.99 m ohms not amps. There should also be a greater than sign before the 19.99 i.e >. What make of machine do you have. Email me and I will talk you through it.

    Andy

  • http://www.crown-forge.co.uk Dave J

    Hi Guy’s

    That is just the reading that the machines give for insulation tests, I have never really understood it myself either. Certain appliances will give you different readings on the insulation tests, generally laptop chargers and sometimes large white appliances (washing machines etc) but I would say 99% of the equipment we test gives out the 19.99m ohms reading. You are doing nothing wrong my friend.

    Dave.

  • http://www.highlandappliancetestingltd.co.uk andykearns

    As a general rule if the insulation is greater than 19.99 m ohms the insulation is in a good condition and the appliance is not going to cause problems. Be very careful though when carrying out insulation tests on IT equipment or anything that has circuit boards in them as you can damage them easily by sending too much current through them. Any equipment such as IT should always be tested on the low current setting such as 100, 200 or 250mA.

  • http://www.jasonslater.co.uk jasonslater

    I am putting together a post about PAT Test equipment. I know there is the Fluke 6500 and the Seaward Primetest 350 – but which PAT Tester does everyone use/prefer?

  • Pingback: Six Portable Appliance Testing (PAT) Equipment Devices | Jason Slater Technology Blog | Technology Management

  • http://www.highlandappliancetestingltd.co.uk andykearns

    Having used 2 of the machines listed (The Martindale Easypat and the Seaward 350), both are good machines to use. The Martindale is a straight forward no-nonsense machine that is an ideal starter into the PAT testing field but is cumbersome compared to the Seaward which is hand-held and battery operated and has the facility to download results which saves time if PAT testing on a regular basis.
    One machine that is not mentioned is the Seaward 200 which I tend to use on many smaller jobs as it is by far the easiest machine to use that I have ever come across. It also has an RCD test facility. With a price below any of the others mentioned I personally beleive that this is the best buy for any newcomer into the industry.

  • http://www.highlandappliancetestingltd.co.uk andykearns

    Just been looking at a few procurement contracts and the price of pat testing seems to be weighted now at an average of 40%. The price has been 30% historically. Surely these larger organisations must realise their testing is not going to be done properly if they are choosing companies mainly on price. It would be cheaper for them to buy their own labels and put them on themselves as this is what will happen in most cases anyway.

  • http://www.crown-forge.co.uk Dave J

    Hear Hear Andy!! Lets face it though we have no chance. In a recession such as this one large organizations (and small) are looking to cut costs. Many of them have just decided not to get P.A.T testing done at all this year in a somewhat risky way to save on budgets. I personally am very very reluctant to go any lower than £1 per test mainly based on principal. But I have to admit that all my main competitors are blowing me out of the water in my region. As I stated in an earlier post, a council we have served for nearly 10 years have gone to a company who will do their testing for 60p per test. I just wish that these companies prices could be governed somehow.

  • http://www.pat-tester-sales.co.uk Gazkc

    Looks like, on various PAT Forums that ALL PAT testers get a lot of flack, sometimes with good cause, but very often all being tarred with the same brush.
    I take on board the comments that charging so little for such an important service, that you will probably get what you pay for.

    But here is my point. If you are one of the many diligent and professionals out there conductin PAT Testing, you have 2 options.

    1- Stick to your principles and charge the rate that is appliaccable to the quality of service you provide.

    2- Compete with the prices, to keep the work coming in and be able to feed our kids, pay the mortgage etc.

    Unfortunetly both options are going to see your income decrease, in a time when winning contracts and keeping them is paramaount.

    In option 1 you stick to your quality of service and rates. Chance are that some of your clients will defect to the lesser prices, not really knowing if they will get a good service or not.

    In option 2 you compete with the prices. Now you are seen as one of the less desirables………. Untill you carry out your service, sticking to your fundamentals and diligent nature. Then your rewards will be, further retained contracts…all be it at a lesser rate. More work-less money???

    I, like others on these forums, believe that someone will be seriuosly injured at some point and the PAT Testing Industry will be turned on its head. If you comply with Code of Practice, give quality service, then I am sure that you will be fine and pull through.

    For all the others I hope that you either fall in line and give the client an acceptable level of HEALTH AND SAFETY CHECKS. So employees, public, your friends, and your family do not get injured through yours or someone like yours, inadequate PAT Test.

    PAT Testing is a Health and Safety Check. Its there for a reason!

    If your not willing to treat it as such and respect the service that you are supposed to be giving, then I am also sure that one day you will be found out.

    This also applies to the clients. As there budgets are all lower, they are also looking for the lowest prices, which in turn drive the prices lower, with competition. They too will face the consequences of getting what they are pay for.

    So hopefully they will not just look at the price but follow this up with references etc etc

    In summary mo matter what people charge, its the level of service thats going to win and maintain contracts, which I am sure most of us do.

    So had my little soap box moment.

    Hopefully you will agree with most comments.

  • http://www.highlandappliancetestingltd.co.uk andykearns

    Totally agree with you gazkc. We will have to ride the storm with the lower prices. Its better paying the bills than living on principles sometimes. Most industries are struggling at the moment so we are not alone.
    Hopefully in time the good testers will still be in the game and the bad ones will have been caught out. I have personally gone back into doing a lot more installation work, don’t particularly like to get my hands dirty but my bills are paid.

    I believe we have much harder times in front of us and we have to react to survive. Maybe the cowboys out there will not have the knowledge to react and adapt. I am being asked more to complete the fixed wire testing, pat testing, fire and em. lighting at the same time to prevent excessive travel and call out charges. This suits me as I am being kept busy.

    All the good ones out their keep going. Our time will come.

  • http://www.crown-forge.co.uk Dave J

    Just thought I’d let all you guys know, we have just been out-quoted by a company charging 55p per appliance for testing only 600 tests!! That is the record of 60p gone. This cowboy must have gone in and completed the work in one day. This is getting ridiculous.

    Also, speaking to a guy who prints our labels the other day and he know’s a guy who used to work for Hawksworths (Thirsk I think) and he was trained by them to carry out 500-600 tests in a day’s work.

    COMPANIES…. WAKE UP!!!

  • http://www.highlandappliancetestingltd.co.uk andykearns

    Lets face it. Some companies are not interested in quality as long as an independent company has given them a certificate. Its not just PAT testing though. I was working down south in Bolton at a residential home. I was on the top floor and needed to go out so I followed the emergency exit signs to get out only to find they led me into a bedroom. The signs on the other floors were worse. I had a nosey around only to find that over 50 percent of the emergency lighting was not working either. I had a word with the manager who let me have a look at the log book. The signs and lights had been “tested” 2 weeks prior to me being there and no faults were found. The signs were mixed standards as well (British and European). She rang the company to complain and unfortunately no managers were available to take her call. I rang them on her behalf and suggested that I contact NICEIC and FIA who they were members and the fire brigade. A service engineer was miraculously in the area and corrected the lights and signs whilst I was there. I offered them the use of a lux meter as he didn’t have one. This was one of the big boys of the fire industry who is putting lives at risk. This home was full of elderly and disabled people. I was disgusted and put the complaint in writing. I haven’t had a reply yet though.

  • http://www.pattestlincoln.co.uk Keith

    Interesting comment about Hawksworth. I told them at interview that I could inspect/test under ideal conditions 25 per hour. Needless to say I never heard from them again.

  • http://www.yotari.co.uk PAT Testing Equipment

    I agree as always with Andykearnes – it’s like all jobs where you ‘check’ something rather than maintain it. You couldn’t be a plumber and not fit any pipes – you couldn’t be a painter and not put any paint on the walls. But, people in the test and inspection business seem to think it’s ok to simply put stickers on things to say they’ve been checked (when they probably haven’t)

    As long as the customers turn a blind eye to it (so they can get low prices) it will continue – but somebody, somewhere is going to get killed, and somebody else is going to get into big trouble. Although I hope it never happens, at least we will have a decent industry to work in afterwards.

  • Ali

    Dear Collegues

    I with a great interest have read your notes and took therefrom a lot of useful.
    At the same time I need additional information to check IT accesories
    such as
    looptop adapters.240VAC to 18 VAC
    phone adapters AC/DC adaptets

    Haw I can test it? It this equipment needs to only visual inspections ar anothetr also? abd please provide if possible electrical sheme of connection

    Regards
    Ali

  • http://www.highlandappliancetestingltd.co.uk andykearns

    As a general rule telephone adapters only need a visual inspection to be carried out the same as the laptop ones. (Presume you mean laptop not looptop).
    If the laptop adapter is fed by an IEC lead then the IEC lead must be tested for damage, continuity, insulation and polarity.
    Telephone adaters that are left plugged in constantly are a mayor source of fires so staff awareness is also needed. Switch things OFF when not being used.

    Hope this helps you Ali.

  • http://www.independent-testing.co.uk activealex

    Interesting thread! As a long established business we have also found difficulty in competing with with the ’60p per item’ brigade!
    I think we’ve found the only real way of dealing with it. Educate your customers. We spend a lot of time showing our customers exactly how we do our job and the reasons why. We show them how time consuming it can be in a cluttered office, following cables and having to move furniture to access plugs!
    We have on many occasions agreed discounted rates on the understanding we will only perform a formal visual inspection of equipment as opposed to a combined test and inspection and the inventory and testing certificates reflect this.
    Over time, we have found our customers ask us to return to the combined test and inspection as they become aware of the potential dangers they may face!

  • http://www.highlandappliancetestingltd.co.uk andykearns

    I can agree in principle with what you say Alex. Education must be a priority as PAT testing is seen as a joke to most people. If someone has a kitchen fitted they can see the finished product and will happily pay for quality. With a PAT test you start with the appliance and end up with the same appliance seemingly untouched. How can we justify the higher price we hear them say. PAT testing is only carried out in many cases as the companies have to for varying reasons and many are confused by the many websites giving different information as to what the process really entails.
    If we are up-front with our customers, show them any item that fails and point out the reasons why it has failed we should hopefully build up a rapport and trust with the customers so that they realise that PAT testing is a useful additional to their H&S practices.
    Lets not forget that the whole idea of PAT testing is to identify items requiring maintenance or withdrawal from service. The folk in the odd pence brigade will come unstuck eventually and refering to Jason Slaters original posting on the subject I think it is time that something like “rouge traders” do get involved.

  • Lloyd

    Hi all,

    I have just completed my C&G 2377 and we were told to test any class 3 appliances as class 2 using the tester (using the 200mA setting where appropriate). Reading the thread above, it seems that they should only be visually inspected. Which is correct please??

    Also, I am just about to purchase a tester and I really like the idea of the Seaward Primetest 350 with the bluetooth belt mounted printer and bluetooth barcode reader. It is expensive but I reckon it will speed the actual test process up considerably. Has anybody actually used this combination??

    Also, the 350 seems to only be able to carry out a 200mA earth continuity test and not a higher current test – is this sufficient?? Most testers seem to offer a higher current test to (up to 26A in some cases). Seaward claim that it fully meets the requirements of the CoP.

    Also, going back to the question of testing IEC leads separately, if the lead and appliance pass the earth continuity and insulation resistance checks when connected to the appliance, why would it then fail if tested separately?? I know it says it in the code of practice but just trying to understand the reasons myself!

    Thanks

    Lloyd

    • http://pat-test.org/ PAT Testing

      Hi, it looks like theres going to be a real shake up in pat testing according to the Iet, watch this space.

  • http://www.pattestnow.co.uk Grant

    what a fantastic thread.!! I was beginning to think I was one of the only PAT testing companies in the world these days that actually cares about doing a good job!! you have given us hope. Some of these guys are shocking – trying to raise awareness of these cowboys is so difficult but doing all I can, posting/blog on my site etc

  • Steviesparks

    Hi guys
    I agree with Grant, interesting thread, we need a forum for pat testing where we can name and shame the ‘pence’ brigade but always keeping within the law and also exchange useful information and ideas about pat testing which is a skilled job after all, if done correctly, and I say that as a qualified electrician, not many electricians have 2377 and don’t know how to test properly, but unfortunately the ‘pence’ brigade are turning the trade into a rubber stamping operation, shoving stickers on un-tested appliances, a forum may increase customer awareness about cheap testing, the fact that it’s dangerous testing, and not perceived as value for money testing.

  • http://www.highlandappliancetestingltd.co.uk andykearns

    I’ll answer Lloyd first.

    The primetest 350 is an excellent machine, but remember to read the instruction manual. The menu is easy to use if you take the time to have a play around with it. I honestly do not know the answer to the 200mA and above testing as I am not that familiar with the machine. Seawards technical department are excellent to deal with. If they do not know the answer they do find out for you.

    The barcode reader is to me a different matter. I personally find it easier to do a new asset register at every testing period. In practice things get moved around, thrown away and new items are purchased. In an ideal world these items would be added or taken off the register as the change occurs. I may be unlucky but this has NEVER happened to me. You may find yourself looking for items next year which no longer exists but yet the machine says it does or worse still you may think you have finished the testing and miss a potentially lethal appliance.

    As regards IEC lead checking.

    If for instance you test an IEC lead powering a computer it should be 5 amp rated as per manufacturer spec (forget the below above 700w as per regs, there are exceptions). It is useful to make a note that this lead is for the computer as someone may use it to try to power a kettle in the future. Its about covering yourself in many cases. If the casing on the pc fails at least they have a good lead and vice versa.

    In response to Grant and Steviesparks I would personally go further than just the forum. A PAT test group could be formed with criteria for gaining membership. For instance only people holding their 2377 could be members, each member would have to hold public liability etc. As a group we could do web based advertising etc etc. The possibilities are endless. As a group we could also compete for the large procurement contracts which expect the company to have engineers across the uk. Most of the big boys employ around 20 to 40 full time staff. How many qualified testers could we rally.

    Between all of us we will have varying levels of experience such as qualified sparks etc who carry out periodics, fire personnel who are up to speed with the testing side etc. Why not try to utilise our strenghs to go forward. It can be done it just needs some thought and discussions. There is money to be made for all of us out there. Why don’t we go for a big share of it. As a group we can and the beauty of a group is that we are still independent.

  • Steviesparks

    Hi Andy
    Yes thats a good idea, so count me in. There will need to be some form of finance, maybe sell shares in the business. From what I understand the AA are going to start a home maintenance business eg: plumbing, electrical, so don’t be surprised if they offer pat testing, you watch they will charge £3.00 per item and make a killing because it’s the AA. The idea of a centralised sales office directing self-employed testers around the country will work well as far a logistics go, especially if the tester is prepared to travel. And if you can build up a good reputation for quality, punctual work ethic it will succeed where the ‘pence’ brigade fail. A company called ETS (electrical test services) do very well out of pat testing for business like banks, this is what it should aim for, as banks also need fire testing and periodics, and take it from me, banks pay handsomely for unsocial hours testing.

  • http://www.highlandappliancetestingltd.co.uk andykearns

    I’ve come across ETS, CLM and Calbarrie who are the main companies to contend with. The other nationals seem to be the pence brigade paying their staff a pittance with the expectance of hundreds of tests per day.
    As for the finance side of things for setting up costs etc it may not cost a great deal but I feel we need to get interested parties into some kind of discussion behind closed doors so to speak to give their thoughts of how it may work and what kind of assurances we need to prevent any underhanded practises.
    Any companies who are interested send me an e-mail at sales@highlandtestingltd.co.uk and I’ll try to suss out ways to get our ideas moving.

  • http://www.crown-forge.co.uk Dave J

    Hi guy’s,

    It’s been a while since I posted but this discussion has gone from strength to strength. COUNT ME IN for anyway possible to stop this pence brigade ruining this industry. We have just been asked to go back to re-quote for an old customer who have over 100 large stores in the uk. HAWKESWORTHS took the custom from us last year by offering 79pence per test to cover every store nationwide and I went to site survey the leeds and york storers repectively and the standard of work was disgusting. The Leeds store had literally had 30% of their appliances tested by whatever cowboy had gone in there and the York site maybe 70% of appliances. I explained to the regional facilities co-ordinator that the reason they can offer these silly prices is because they have self employed engineers around the country who go in and get out as quickly as possible so they can submit their invoice to the P.A.T company. The problem with this is massive inconsistency of workmanship and I just think it is surely about time that these companies are brought to their knees so that people can actually go back to testing somewhere between 150-200 tests in a good hard honest days work rather than being forced to compete with people who are obviously doing 400 tests a day (or should i say applying 400 stickers a day) and getting away with it!!!
    I have even started to send some of our customers the link to this blog so they can try and do a bit of their own research on this matter.
    I am open for discussions/ideas on what we might be able to do to compete for large contracts and take them from the pence brigade.
    Keep up the good work guy’s.

  • wayne

    Hi Guys

    Interesting and enjoyable read on here. I do have a question though if you can help. can you get away with just a visual on i.e phone chargers laptop chargers etc as lets face it some chargers i.e nokia chargers have class II {2} on them and others dont and yet they are covered in plastic you can touch them and they are portable so should we be doing class 2 tests and like me i use a seaward supernova plus so you could place the earth probe/clip on the plastic although i dont see this doing much to be honest.

    Some companies i seen just put visual stickers on there but its class II so an i.t test here perhaps on it. i say i.t test as some chargeres are smart chagers and have special circuits in them. aslo ibutf no class is seen should this not be tested as class 1 then. what do you guys rekon.

  • http://www.crown-forge.co.uk Dave J

    Hi Wayne,

    They should just be tested as I.T class 2 appliances, they are low voltage but I do not beleive in doing a visual when 10 seconds later you can have a fully comprehensive test with test results for the customer. I personally just have an insulation test running on my I.T class 2 test setting.

    Hope this helps.

  • wayne

    Hi guys again.

    cheers for reply dave. i do understand class II testing on chargers for i.t etc but what if we have no class II marking and lets face it we could have a figure of 8 lead supplying it. so lead class 2 yes but as no markings on charger you would then be going as class 1 as per regs. but on the other hand we could have a clover leaf adaptor so lead tested as class 1 via iec but ive seen some chargers with clover leaf as class 1 and class II and others with no markings at all. so do we just test all suply chargers at class II nowdays.

    Only asking as you all seem a great bunch on here and im head shot with what i have seen about i.e the pence brigade testers. i was starting to doubt my own mind.

    Keep up the good posts guys look forward to your replies. have a good week end every one

  • http://www.highlandappliancetestingltd.co.uk andykearns

    Hi Wayne

    A few items which are not marked up with their class can cause confusion as to what class they actually are. Oscillating fans, transformer boxes and some chargers etc. With all the above there is no exposed earth so cannot be tested as class 1 but I always state on my documentation that there is no exposed earth and mark them as class 1.

    Glad you are back with us Dave. I’ve a few names and companies showing interest now and have a few friends working on the legal side of forming a trade association / group. (Not quite as easy as a limited company)

    I’ll foot the initial set up costs re website etc and see how we go. I’m all over Scotland for the next 3 weeks though so probably won’t get on here much but will be in touch asap.

    Andy.

  • wayne

    Cheers for the reply

    glad i stumbled across this forum, im a spark by trade but when building trade went pear shaped etc and part P arrived i took some time off and went down a new career route away from electrics altogether. Just in the process of taking 17th edition as my 16th outdated now. and also doing a little pat testing on the side lines to keep my hand in.

    On another note i have been asked to do a fair bit of testing on power amps i.e the ones bands use and for p.a equipment. Looked at some of these amps which are class one metal cased. but as never tested such items like this before i take it class 1 test but as i.t here as there must be loads of electronics in there.

    Keep up the good work will keep in touch with the blog nice reading.

  • http://www.highlandappliancetestingltd.co.uk andykearns

    Hi Wayne

    As you have stated treat the amps as class 1 IT equipment as they are full of electronics. You won’t go wrong then.
    Good luck with your 17th. It is a lot easier than the 16th was. It is an open book multi-guess exam with a low pass mark these days. I’ve heard of folk passing with as little as 60 percent even though it should be around 85 percent.

    As long as you know where to find the answers in the regs you will pass. It’s a bit of a joke really.

    Don’t forget that you don’t need part p for industrial or commercial work it’s only for domestic. There have been more fires and mis-haps in domestic properties since part p was introduced as sparks now have to walk away from jobs due to the regs and part p only to find j bloggs down the street making an unsafe installation lethal.

    Good old health and safety.

    Andy

  • Andy

    Great thread. I have recently started working self employed for a large company mentioned in this forum. I can already see why workmanship is so poor and inconsistent.
    In an average busy office, with people working at PCs, tangled cables and 4 way extensions everywhere it can take a long time to do the job to the correct standard in the allocated time. With a full cable and device visual, checking plug wiring and fuse, resistance and earth checks, repairing faulty plugs and logging data it is a push to do 100 tests to good standard.
    If I only do 100 tests per day, with my cost of labels, fuel etc I might earn £20-£30 a day. This is the point where people start cutting corners and run around putting stickers on just to earn a decent living. In my opinion this is the fault of the so-called professional company employing subcontractors and expecting 200-300 tests per day.

  • http://www.aggelectrical.co.uk matt @ cheap pat testing

    When a business hires a pat tester they should be getting people who can do the job. If i hired anyone to do something i would expect them to do a full and complete job as i will be paying them to do that job. I do agree that pat testers needs to be regulated and made sure they are doing the job but i would fear that its more paper work and more time to make sure we are doing our jobs correctly. perhaps a site should be set up to let customers see reviews of professionals in any job and how good they were or weren’t. Maybe its all int he teaching that needs to improve in some cases but some times people are just lazy.

  • http://www.highlandappliancetestingltd.co.uk andykearns

    Hi Matt

    Have to agree with what you say. We are only as good as our last job. A lot of folk are lazy in all occupations not just ours. Maybe some kind of grading system could be used via some kind of directory.

    Andy

  • wayne

    Hi guys again

    cheers for the earlier support on this wonderful forum. I asked earlier about testing power amps / electronic equipment full of possible electronics. now my seaward supernova plus has IT mode settings but would you go into the options and use the 250v insulation settings rather than the 500v.

    just curious as the IT settings on the nova plus are IT class 1 but say 500v. now surge protected devices use the 250v option as you get fails but would damage occur on an IT test with 500v setting on.

    Could you guys throw some light on it please cheers. dont wanna cause early failure on electronics etc. cheers

  • http://www.highlandappliancetestingltd.co.uk andykearns

    Hi Wayne

    There is a good report available by seaward on the various insulation tests and alternatives to these tests. The 500v test tends to cause problems on older appliances as a rule but I would use 250v in most cases. touch current tests etc are also used but if you read the report it explains them all in detail. I’ve not got a link to the site but the info is as follows

    Engineering talk. Insulation test alternatives compared. June 12, 2008

    Hope this helps

    Andy

  • http://www.pattestnow.co.uk Grant

    Once again the thread on this is fantastic. The age of proper pricing for this is not dead – one of my clients found this thread and introduced it to me, he was concerned about the cheapo cowboys and our higher priced quote was successful, there is hope for anyone who wants to earn a fair days pay for good work.

    One point that does worry me a little is the frequency of testing according to IEE recommendations. I guess as good practitioners of the industry we should be complying with this in our recommendations to clients. BUT, it is just so impractical to send guys round just testing this or that piece of kit, most companies either test everything, or they dont test, but we know that vdu’s and hard drives, printers etc dont need testing every year, but we could argue that the IEC cables/extensions could do with at least a visual every year.The IEE recs do not cover this AT ALL. How can we be responsible in this regard to our clients who part with their hard earned cash. Do you do 2 years on offices, for example? We have offered a part test year on year, for example testing leads/extensions and other stuff, and leaving out vdu’s and hard drives, printers and such. but then you have to unplug it all to get to those items, and it’s a pain.

    It’s a difficult scenario, what do other people do, because I know some clients are happy for annual testing, whatever. If we are testing to their wishes, are we being a little irresponsible??? Your thoughts everyone

    cheers

  • http://www.highlandappliancetestingltd.co.uk andykearns

    The frequency guidelines are for the INITAL testing and inspecting. i.e. a VDU can be 4 years old before its first combined inpection and test. The guidelines then throw the book at the competent person to decide on how frequent the tesing should be dependeant on the business activity,enviroment etc. No one has the b**ls to make a decision that would give a solution to this problem. As you say IT equipment in an office is recommended every two years but the IEC leads are annual. I carry the guidelines with me on every job and show the customer the scenerio that we are faced. Most of the time they settle for annual testing but that is their decision although it is an informed decision. If this decision is above a year I tend to ask them to check the criteria of their insurance cover to be on the safe side. Due to there being so many grey areas within the guidelines we cannot enforce a regime only suggest it. Insurance companies are leading the way at the moment but unfortunately a lot of the agents carrying out site visits seem to be clueless on regs whether PAT, fixed wire, and fire.
    I think this problem will only be solved by the insurance companies as I do not have a great deal of faith in the people who write various regs within our industry and no faith whatsoever in the HSE who publish leaflets telling people they don’t really need to have appliances tested.

  • http://deleted ben

    This is in response to andys post,i have worked for the same company as you over a year ago now they are a load of w…..ers they pay the engineers 50 pence a test and you have to supply your own vehicle and petrol and buy your own insurance.You are quite correct in what you are saying some days you will struggle to do a hundred tests which would give you £5o.00 take your petrol money out and your tax out and you are left with peanuts,this is where people start putting on the stickers to make up their two hundred target which still only gives you £100.00 which is still very poor for a self employed skilled person,after tax and petrol costs and vehicle costs you will be on about 60 pound a day they pay cleaners that.

  • http://www.highlandappliancetestingltd.co.uk andykearns

    I can sympathise to a degree with poor wages. As you say a cleaner may earn what you get after expenses but the cleaner is not endangering lives or missing potential fire hazards if they miss a bit of dust.
    When a person accepts a vacancy within a firm they should know whether or not it is a cowboy outfit within a week. (I’ve worked for quite a few over the years). If it is a cowboy outfit LEAVE. Get another job. Go to trading standards, watchdog etc. Peoples lives and livelihoods are in contractors hands every day so we have got to ensure these are preserved.
    The people having the PAT testing carried out didn’t force you into the job so I see no reason why they should suffer by having just a label stuck on.
    However bad your company is there is NO EXCUSE for not doing the job you are paid to do.
    Hypothetical this next bit and is not aimed at Ben.
    Lets do the maths. Target of 200 tests per day or 1000 a week. Over a year based on 48 wks thats 48000 tests. Lets say that 24000 of these appliances are not tested and 1 in every 1000 appliances are faulty. 24 appliances could potentially cause fatalities through fire or electrocution.
    Could all the people who just put labels on live with themselves if any person lost their business or their lives through your negligence. If you say yes to this then PAT testing is not for you.

    Rant over

    Andy

  • http://www.omegapat.co.uk OMEGA PAT Ltd

    Further to the comments about PAT engineers I wholheartedly agree that the majority of engineers are either ignorant of the guidance regulations or just plain ignore them. Over the years, I have found that most of the companies that we have followed on from have not changed fuses to the correct rating, have obviously not unscrewed the plug top and checked that each individual cable terminal is tight, have not noticed that the extension lead in use is actually a double insulated cable and does not even contain an earth wire. These plethora of companies also spurt forth the same old rubbish that IT equipment in an office environment should be tested every year
    See link for the correct initial inspection frequencies. http://www.omegapat.co.uk/what-is-the-frequency-of-testing.html#5
    There are very few ways to ensure that a contractor is actually competent and going for the cheapest price certainly is not one of them. Companies that are accredited (ECA, SAFEcontractor, etc, etc) should be considered first of all and, even thought this is not a 100% guarantee of excellence, it does prove that the company can follow basic procedures and H & S requirements.
    One of the ways we advise cients about choosing a company is to suggest that they arm themselves with a copy of the Codes of practice for In Service Inspection and Testing of Electrical Equipment and INSIST that any engineer attending site will not be allowed access without a copy in their posession. Engineers should also be expected to have produced a risk assessment, method statement and show copies of their C & G qualification.
    Whenever we attend a client and find that the previous company has NOT done its job, we ask permission from our client to pursue the offender for an explanation in writing with possible complaints to trading standards.

  • http://www.omegapat.co.uk OMEGA PAT Ltd

    Just a further note about class II equipment. The codes of practice clearly state that class II equipment does not actually need to be tested JUST visually inspected. This applies to certain environments only – offices and shops and hotels.
    We would consider that class II heating appliances should be tested fully, however.

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  • http://www.pattestnow.co.uk Grant

    A few really good points Omega, especially about many testers being ignorant of the facts, but I think you are getting a bit bogged down and being rather pc, IMHO, and ranting on about the code of practice, which incidentally, is not specific about certain appliances. How the hell is the client supposed to understand it, when the main bodies cannot even agree on what is a decent and proper testing regime? do your guys just go round testing the odd lead and kettle then? If so how do you price it? It is a good question one which i will raise again and got a very good answer form Andy Kearns, about the whole testing regime thing, if you go round testing only certain stuff maybe it should be on a time basis. And although I am ECA registered, I dont necessarily agree about having to be this or that registered, its not worth a light, its all about what tester you get on the day, and whether they know what they are doing – are they competent??
    I think the whole piece rate thing has started this downward spiral of price, and now the cowboys win every time. Something has got to be done about it – big time.

    now thats my rant over!!! Have a happy day everyone!

    Grant

  • http://www.crown-forge.co.uk Dave J

    Hi guy’s,

    Yeah got to go with Grant on this one. Many good points raised by Omega but realistically, we are losing out on thousands of pounds worth of work every month at the moment because there are companies out there who keep undercutting us to an average of £0.70p – £0.80p which as we all know, means this company are not carrying out the work to any standard what so ever. I guess my point is that we are having to fight tooth and nail to regain our current customers without starting to change our frequency of testing! As far as I am concerned, we always consult the customer, who many times ask my opinion on frequency of tests, but I will always recommend a full blanket test of the premises so nothing gets missed, there is no crossover period etc and if the client is happy with this then happy days. It’s not as if we are doing it behind their backs, as I said, particularly in the current climate with companies tightening the purse strings I tell them the recommendations and they make a decision. On the same note about SAFEcontractor, we are both safecontractor and CHAS approved contractors and it has done absolutely nothing for us what so ever, unfortunately as long as people are charging £0.70p a test I really am stuck as to what we can do to compete with them as it is the price the client will look at unfortunately, not the service offered or the h&s scheme you are affiliated with.
    Rant over ….. for now!!

  • http://www.highlandappliancetestingltd.co.uk andykearns

    Well said Grant with regards to the tester. I am NICEIC registered but can send testers out in the field unqualified. I am the person who has been approved as competent. No one else within the company has to be. This is where problems arise. Every person should be qualified and in the event of a problem should be liable to prosecution. Most of the companies who are paying their staff peanuts are the larger companies who are accredited with several of the bodies, they tend to have SAFEcontractor status etc and ISO certification but the staff don’t test the item as they can’t afford to.

  • http://www.nationwideelectricalsafety.co.uk steve booth

    Great post and very informative!! Thanks

  • http://www.highlandappliancetestingltd.co.uk andykearns

    I was out PAT testing today and came across a situation which I had never come across before and ended up arguing with another spark regarding a location of a socket. The socket powering a class 1 convector heated is located in a washroom which has a toilet and a sink. It was 10 cm away from the basin of the toilet just below the basin and was fractional away from the pipes therefore not directly underneath. All these above factors ensure that it is not in breach of any regulations within 7671 but could be in breach if the toilet ever requires repair. As most of us know blokes do miss the bowl from time to time so I was not happy with the location due to the potential problems that could occur so took the heater out of the washroom tested it and passed the heater (now located in the hallway) and recommended the client to think carefully about using the socket in the washroom. He phoned the spark who had fitted the socket and voiced my concerns then I spoke to the spark which led to an argument on his commonsense. I know he has not breached any regs but where would we stand if anything went wrong.
    This type of situation is not covered in section 7 as it is not a special location like a bathroom and section 5 is extremely vague although it does touch on accessories in close proximity to non-electrical services although for the socket to be a breach it would need to be underneath the pipework.
    Any help or suggested would be welcomed as I personally feel that this situation lacks all commonsense but yet can be done anywhere. Surely our job is to ensure safety and on this occasion the regs do not help anyone

  • http://www.pat-tester-sales.co.uk GKC

    Hi Andy and All,

    I have to say that this forum is going from strength to strength. So many topical subjects. The one thing that stands out is the many comments about the 79p Brigade”. I too believe that clients do not care about the quality of the work carried out, only the price per item. As long as they have green stickers on the appliances then they are happy and believe they have fulfilled there requirements.

    I use this forum to show my customers of the risks and potential hazards of using these. But I also try to be subjective, not all £0.79p companies are cowboys. I am sure many are diligent, but what stood out for me was that there is no national PAT register/ Safe working scheme for PAT Tester. I know Andy has mentioned it, but what is the status so far. I believe I can help you with this Andy. Contact me if you need some assistance.

  • http://www.highlandappliancetestingltd.co.uk andykearns

    Hi GKC

    Everything is on hold at the moment until I sit my final ou exams in October. It wouldn’t normally be delayed by so long but I’m fortunate that I’m busy with work until then as well.
    I would definately take up your offer of assistance. I beleive it could be a mayor leap forward for the industry.

    If you could email your contact details to myself it would be much appreciated

    Thanks

    Andy

    sales@highlandtestingltd.co.uk

  • http://rbgrant.co.uk/pattesting.aspx PAT testing Fife

    I agree James , I run a electrical contracting business and we provide pat testing services around Scotland . We have many clients who understand the importance of a qualified tester but many however do not . As you say , as long as the stickers on the machine many business owners just want a low price . We find it very hard to supply a quality portable appliance test for less than £1 an item . I get many calls from the 79p crew asking our hourly rate , many are just a call centre who subcontract the actual work. Regulation are required in the UK for pat testing to stop these rouge traders

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  • http://www.highlandappliancetestingltd.co.uk andykearns

    Hi PAT testing Fife,
    I keep getting mithered from quite a few of the 79p brigade as they get caught out up here with the distances involved. They tend to give quotes then realise they have no staff to cover the job or that it would cost them too much.
    Let them get on with it, it will catch up with them sooner or later.

  • http://www.pattestingnorthwest.co.uk PAT Testing Northwest

    Hi everyone,

    I work for a PAT testing company and we often get clients ringing up claiming they have been quoted 70 pence per item with no extra fee`s on top, I find this a very low charge as based on say 60 items that would be £42.00.

    Now say the job is a 20 mile round trip – 30 mins
    15 items an hour – 4 hour
    printing off test certs, invoice, address, and posting – 30 mins (£1.00 postage costs)

    total time 5 hours

    This leads me to believe that these so called companys, either pay very low wages and or they arnt doing there job correctly.

    Most companys just want there PAT testing doing for as cheap as possible but if a so called PAT testing company is just placing stickers on the appliances and getting 100 an hour done then it really defeats the object of having a PAT test carried out.

  • http://www.highlandappliancetestingltd.co.uk andykearns

    Hi PAT Testing Northwest.

    We know the testing is not being done properly, just wish the customers did.

    Just looking at your post and thinking what a luxury a 20 mile round trip would be rather than the average 200 mile trip around here.

    A lesson that I have learned very quickly is not to advertise any prices whatsoever that we charge. If the big boys know what our going rate is they can always undercut us so all of us need to be aware that we can in effect become our own worst enemy.

    If it’s any consolation I’ve just been awarded a few contracts by a company who has dealt with the big boys for the last few years and state categorically that they would never be allowed in the building again. (One does involve a trip down south though but it will be good to see a city again)

    Andy

  • http://www.pattestingnorthwest.co.uk PAT Testing Northwest

    Hi Andy,

    It`s I often have people ringing up asking what we charge per item, we have a price structure which we stick to, some people will ring litterally ask how much we charge per item then once told they will either go ahead with the job or end the call it`s that simple for some customers, some people arnt interested in things like insurance,calabrated up to date PAT testing equipment, experence in PAT testing, ect.

    I wouldnt let an amature with no experience, no training and faulty tools fix the car i take my children to school in just because they were the cheapest about, so i find it very strange why companies that may be and probably are doing the same cowboy tests appliances they are probably just placing stickers on are beind used.

    In my personal experience of PAT testing 1000`s of appliances I havent found all that many that do actually fail, but as anyone with any common sense know`s, it only takes one unsafe appliance to potentially kill someone and when companys use these cowboys that charge so little and make out that they are doing so much. they can`t really care all that much about their own safety not to mention their clients, collegues, friends and family and anybody else that are using the potentially unsafe appliances every day.

    Anyway i`m glad the work has picked up for you and it just goes to show that companys are learning by the mistake of spending so little as the old saying goes, you get what you pay for!

    • http://www.pattestnow.co.uk Grant Foster

      Hi Northwest,

      I guess the reason is the same reason we shop around for the cheapest quote on insurance, or paper supplies. Most companies just dont see PAT as important, as you say, so they go for the cheapest quote and dont care about the consequences – most of them actually believe every company offers the same service – thats the amazing part!!

      cheers
      Grant

  • Pat Testing Portsmouth

    Hi Guys,
    I have been reading through some of the threads and finding some of the comments really interesting. Having just completed my course and looking to do some testing myself, i was wondering if anyone can give some advice on what tester is the best to go for?

  • http://www.highlandappliancetestingltd.co.uk andykearns

    Hi PAT testing Portsmouth

    I personally would go for the Seaward prime test 300 or 350 if you’ve got 800 ish quid to spare. If not the seaward 200 series are very good easy to use testers. They have everything that is required including an RCD test facility plus they are handheld rather than carrying a suitcase around with you all day.

    A proper voltage tester is a must to check for any voltage when testing at spurs along with a microwave leakage tester. (Using tin foil doesn’t give a professional image). Reasonable quality ones are around 30 to 40 each. The voltage tester could save your life though so get the best that you can afford.

    As you have probably picked up from some of the threads the best tester are your own senses. Regardless of which tester you chose never forget the importance of the visual inspection along with your sense of smell. Most faulty appliances will pass the PAT test, its up to us to see or smell most faults.

    A good Pat tester isn’t concerned how many appliances they can pass. Our job is to search out the appliances that could kill or injure someone. That is were the label brigade go wrong.

    Good luck in your new venture and I hope it works out. Don’t expect miracles straight away but stick at it and the rewards will come in time. PAT testing is definitely not a get rich quick scheme.

    Andy

  • http://www.pattestingnorthwest.co.uk PAT Testing Northwest

    I agree with andy, The primetest 300/350 are very good PAT testers, but just bare in mind when your purchasing a tester that unless you are writing down each individual PAT test result, you will also need to buy the software to go with it and unless you are going to buy PAT testing labels seperately (which i recommend) then you will also need to buy the label printer, cartridge and labels.

    Just thought i`d mention this, hope it helps.

    Russell

  • Pete

    Having read comments on this forum from employees/owners of PAT testing companies offering to ‘HELP OUT’ with setting up some sort of registered body, I am afraid that the credibility of such a body is gone straight away. It needs to be impartial to work and would certainly not be if this happened. I am all for a governing body and if non profit making would be interested, but not if a group of disgruntled company owners set it up themselves (and undoubtedly advertise on the site!). This is how people lose faith in so called independent/impartial bodies as happened with fire extinguisher servicing a few years ago.
    I think alot of the grumbling is down to people living the high life off the back of what is really a quite simple job and now having to tighten the purse strings as every one else is doing. Large companies overstretch themselves by taking on national and regional contracts at silly prices to keep the workforce busy and then realise they are not making any money from the contract. If things are not working and you are not making money, then maybe its time to let a few engineers go. Extreme some might say, no, just realistic and something which many companies are doing. Be realistic…..you probably will not earn what you earned last year. There is a recession on! If you cannot compete with the others who are charging less, then either drop your prices or get out of the business. I do however sympathise with those who are slating the 50p test, its unrealistic and I will never drop that low to compete with anyone. Lets not forget though that there are companies out there who are charging nearly £2 an item and still not doing it right, I regularly follow such a company round and cannot speak badly enough about them, but you know what…….. they are still holding several county council contracts!!
    Don’t get mad, get more efficient, sort your logistics out and you will find you can still make a few quid, but don’t and I mean really DON’T try and set up some two bit governing body with company owners as you will have NO credibility.
    I like the posts which are constructive and talk about malpractice as we can learn from them, but don’t grumble too much about prices which are lower than yours as it all sounds like you are bitter at having to share the market place with others. I am all for doing the job right and I get loads of job satisfaction from this and always bend over backwards to help my customers, but time will sort out the rogues as they are here for the short term only. Buckle down and settle for less money for the next few years and when the dust settles you can rest assured that the fly by nights will not be here any more as for many its just a short term solution to being laid off site work etc.
    Pete
    Ps. If you don’t fully test a double insulated power lead how can you check the polarity?? Just a thought……….

  • http://www.crown-forge.co.uk Dave J

    Thanks for the business advice…..

    Wrong, immoral, probably illegal to carry out 300-400 P.A.T tests per day and you think we should all just ‘buckle down and sort our logistics out’ to solve the problem!!!!! I also think you’re being quite presumptuous saying that people have been ‘living the highlife’!!!! I have been in this game for over 10 years now and have yet to experience that!!!

    We only break even over the last couple of years simply thanks to 3-4 very well managed large accounts that we hold, but I can’t see the market value of a P.A.T test fall to below 80p (well below in some cases) without at least discussing it on forums like this.

    Not sure what planet you’re on Pete, would love to know how much you charge and how many tests you carry out every day.

  • http://www.m-t-i.co.uk Martin Scott

    We provide PAT testing in Leeds and carry out much portable appliance testing in many different environments. Having found this blog, i am going to retweet it and tell others about the very informative posts and comments on the subject of pat testing.
    Im very impressed that all the comments are mainly from experienced pat testers and these alone are very informative! Many of our clients in Leeds who call us for pat testing services do know that they are required to have it done but they also want their questions answered – i think this could be the place! Some pat testing information sites just spell out the ‘laws’ around pat testing but do not give a read on a nice personal level. I think this blog will answer most peoples requirements and satisfy there quiries.
    Do like me and retweet this blog to let others know and do the owner a favour too!
    Our Leeds pat testing website is http:www.m-t-i.co.uk if you know anyone in need of us.

    We will be back soon!
    Kind regards,
    Martin

    • http://www.m-t-i.co.uk Martin scott

      http://www.m-t-i.co.uk we did retweet this pat testing blog but noticed the link we provided for anyone looking for pat testing Leeds did not work so for your info, here it is again.

      Kind regards,
      Martin

      Hope the tweet brings some traffic to this pat testing blog!

  • http://www.m-t-i.co.uk Martin Scott

    Have retweeted this excellent blog! thanks, martin

  • Pingback: Tweets that mention PAT Testing | Technology Management • Jason Slater Technology Blog -- Topsy.com

  • http://www.brookmans-testing.co.uk Ian Brooks

    Hello,
    Having just worked for a large pat testing company and now running my own small business it amazes me how these large companies get away with the testing they provide. I agree 100 to 150 tests a day is about right. I personally know of engineers claiming 250 to 300 tests in 7 hrs. How can this be possible it takes longer than 2 mins to check everying that needs to be checked, test and replace the item so for me its just a sticker exercise and yes jason at some point somebody will get injured.
    I would also welcome some sort of pat safe register and lets see how many are still around in a year or two.
    Most interesting site keep em coming.

  • andykearns

    This one is to Pete.

    The register that I posted about was a register of professional companies who could if needed help each other out if required to get larger contracts. (Not necessarily from procurement).
    If a sole trader was contacted with a 10000 item contract with time constraints that contract would go to the big boys purely due to a lack of staff. If another company on the register could supply on a sub-contract basis staff the opportunity to do the 10000 items would still be there.
    Certain criteria to join the register should have to be met.(Insurance, qualifications etc) and the cost of joining the register would be used to pay for the up-keep. (website, admin etc)
    Many testers on here may well be bitter losing contracts (that’s life) but most are angry at losing them to companies that do not do the job properly and have no intention of doing so. This has worked in my favour and I am busier now than I have ever been. Many of my NEW customers have read this forum so it does work for us.
    As regards living the high-life your sadly on a different plane. Most testers make a living. Surely you wouldn’t begrudge anyone of that.
    If you read all the posts cost is an issue that we do have to respond to but the real problem is the number of so called tests being done per muppet. PAT testing is seen as a joke by many and these people are making it worse. These very same people are also doing fixed wire testing as well. God only knows what they miss.

    I personally would like to see the term ‘competent person’ replaced with ‘suitably qualified person’.

    Andy

  • http://www.htpattesting.co.uk Neil Hampton

    This is an old article but unfortunately things have not changed very much. There are certainly still lots of cowboys out there ripping people off. Good to see from the above comments that there are still many of us that do care about our customer’s safety and try to provide a honest service. My company HT PAT Testing have just become NICEIC approved. I know this still does not guarantee that a company completes the testing correctly but it could only help if everyone providing the service was independently accessed.

  • http://www.pattestnow.co.uk Grant Foster

    Hi all,

    Yes the same old things are coming up but then the same old cheats are playing the numbers game. Had a call this morning from a confused client, saying that another company from the north of England (better not name them not sure if I can – but most probably know who it is) has been on the phone at them and saying they were booked to come and do the job, not us!! I have heard quite a few reports of this company badgering companies on the phone and asking them to “go and check their stickers” and also, more worryingly, have turned up to do the job without having their quote agreed. Anyone else heard of this and can we report them to anyone?

  • http://www.prtpattesting.com prtpattesting

    Great article.

    There are some cowboys out there. Stuff like this will help weed out the bad from the good but I fear the only way people can tell the difference is after work has been carried out.

    I’ve heard of so called PAT Testers arriving on site without sticker then returning at a later date to sticker items up !?!?
    You have to question whether these people are capable of putting together accurate paperwork under these circumstances…

    The register mentioned in the comments sounds like a great idea.

    btw, I will be retweeting this..

  • http://www.brookmans-testing.co.uk Ian Brooks

    Once again congratulations on this site very informative. I agree totally with Andy kearns that most testers make a living and we are not all mega rich. Yes if someone has 10000 items for testing then its pretty obvious that this cant be done quickly and safely. I myself have looked at these contracts and would have to sub contract part of it out but i work with another company i trust so thats not a problem, but the time constraints on them does.
    I have had to reduce my charges slightly to keep up with some of the cowboys out there and i am also hearing horror stories about testers and i agree its not good. I am not sure about the paperwork for testing new appliances though i am sure in the IEEC codes of practice it says to tests any appliance regardless of age. the only restraint is weight. I wouldnt test soemthing if it that large its obvious it hasnt moved in years or above the maximum weight for testing. Also if something is fixed to a wall how can this also be portable its not.
    A contract like the one above would last me a heck of a while keeping me in work. I think testers should put a link to this site so people can see we actually care about what we do and do as an industry try and keep our working practises in line with each other. i was also happy to see that this site had checked my website out, which was comforting so i for one will be putting a link to this site.
    Keep posting
    Ian Brooks

  • Dave J

    Hi all,

    I would just like to touch on the quite disturbing subject of a certain company calling around and trying to convince people that they are actually the current suppliers of P.A.T?!?! I’m not sure if I’m missing something here or not but I’m fairly sure that what they are doing there is illegal!

    I would imagine I know of the company that was mentioned in a couple of posts above, am I to think that they would be based around the Thirsk/Northallerton region? I am definitely of the mind that surely they should be reported to someone for this practice however, I am fairly sure that there is not a ‘body’ out there to report them to who would actually take any notice.

    Again I’m just really gutted about the industry that I’ve been in for so long taking a battering simply because this certain company seem to call every business in the country explaining that all other P.A.T companies have been ripping them off in previous years and should move to a more convenient company who charge 69-79p!!!

    Still we keep fighting the good fight!! Lets all stick together and hopefully we will see them off.

    I have just moved my engineers over to martindale hand held testers and recording all our readings onto PDA’S, it’s actually really working well I just wondered if anyone else is doing it this way and if there are any good PDA’S on the market that are good for this?

  • http://www.brookmans-testing.co.uk Ian Brooks

    I am a sole trader and work from home so my overheads are very low and i can do it for that much. I would rather test for more. As far as ringing up and saying what that company is saying it must breach some law…possibly obtaining money by deception. which is fraud.
    Ethically its lower than a snakes nads in winter and i am sure if they do it to a large company they will do something about it.
    Which martindale are you using i am looking at different testers and would like to hear which ones are good to use. The hp jordana 720 pda is ok its very user friendly.

    Ian

  • http://www.patmantestinghull.co.uk Ian Bray

    Have just started my own business, having worked for a fairly large company in the West Yorkshire area for the past year. I must admit I found that most of all, they just want you to label as much as possible as quickly aspossible. I’ve been to sites which they had serviced the previous year only to find that 90% of the plugs(whicxh could be opened) had never been opened, they still had the quality sticker covering the screw undisturbed.

    I’d like to think I can now do a better for my clients and still earn a living.

  • http://www.jasonslater.co.uk Jason Slater

    Hi all, thanks for keeping up the discussions about PAT Testing – it’s fascinating stuff. I am putting together a Google Maps directory of PAT Testers so people can easily find a tester in their area. If you want to be included in this project please drop me a line to pat@jasonslater.co.uk

    Cheers, Jason.

  • Daz T

    With regard to the post from Dave J. We too have been targeted by this company in the North of England. They are not from Thirsk Northallerton – they are based in Leeds, West Yorkshire and have been reported. Probably the same company the last poster worked for!

  • Mike W

    As a long time reader of this site I thought I would have my say on these “stack em high, sell em cheap” companies, I have been in negotiations with a chemical company recently who is obviously looking for the cheapest price they can find, I have highlighted the cost vs service argument but at the end of the day in the current economic climate that we are in, the price is the bottom line. Sooner or later a similar type of (hazardous) company will have a major accident due to a faulty appliance that has JUST been tested then the authorities might do something about it, and as somebody has already said change the wording from “competent” to “Qualified Person”
    With regards to the subject that Dave J hit upon, I too am experiencing a certain company in the north of England ringing customers pretending (or misleading) to be our company and booking them in for their testing then turning up to carry it out only to be showed the door by my loyal customers this is a “Nationwide” company who use this dubious practice. Sometimes they phone up 2 months before the testing is due and offer a discount to carry it out early, we are now thinking of putting a letter together to send to our customers highlighting these unscrupulous methods being used by our competitors that “beat us in price but not in service”

  • Dave J

    Hi,

    This is worse than I thought! Maybe I am even more naive about my own industry than I thought I could be as I really can’t get my head around the fact that people are actually doing this! I had heard from a couple of my customers that ‘certain’ company had done this but it sounds like they are not alone. I think it is definitely time to do something about this. I will report the company that I know have done this to my customers (not sure at the moment who to report them to? any suggestions welcome in this area) and I urge all other testers out there to do the same if this has happened to them or their customers. It’s one thing to charge someone a low price and not even test the equipment properly but by obtaining that business in the first place by using this method is just unacceptable.
    Lets all join forces and REVOLT!!!!!!!

  • http://www.pattestnow.co.uk Grant Foster

    Not sure how to do this responsibly. I actually contacted the ECA about this but its difficult to follow it through without any hard and fast proof. The only thing we could do is warn our customers that all may not be as it seems but it could be a lengthy process warning them all. I could do this through my email marketing system, but also it may seem like sour grapes to some customers although putting out a letter seems a good idea. It would take a lot for the major bodies to be interested, maybe some publications might but not with out the hard proof.

  • SteveN

    As a new comer to this blog I should first say hello to all past & present contributors.
    I am a residential property landlord soon to attend a one day PAT Testing course offered by the NLA. The course is aimed at domestic situations so I suspect will not be too heavy on detail. In preparation I have researched the sector and have gained a good insight which gas been greatly enhanced by coming across this blog which I have read from the first comment onwards. I am moving toward taking the decision to be a full time self-employed PAT engineer and therefore I intend to attend a 2 day course leading to C&G 2377-12. I am keen to explore the pros and cons including start-up costs and likely possible income expectations. I agree with the business case that undercutting is not a sensible development and can only lead to a poor and incompetent service to the customer. I intend to contribute further to this blog in the future. However at this time I am keen to get practical on-site experience before committing to investment in equipment etc. In the event that I pass the 2377-12 I am would welcome an opportunity to shadow or even assist in any way an experienced engineer without expecting payment! I am thinking a couple of days should suffice. I am prepared to travel to most areas of UK (I am in Bromley, Kent). If you feel you are able to assist me in any way, either with advice or an offer to observe/assist, I would be most grateful.

  • Stevie Gee

    OK guys it’s April 2011 this is the picture in the South.

    Just lost a PAT Testing Tender to our local council – they went with the cheapest quote at 75p per item!!

    This is a council who also operate and regulate a Trading Standards & Health & Safety Department!!!

    If a Council can’t see that this price is too cheap to be able to do the testing properly then we are all under the cosh!

    With all the recently announced cut-backs in the public sector it now appears that our local government are now condoning the cowboys as well, so what hope is there for the rest of us??

    By the way – that company in Leeds who also keep phoning our customers – we found out when they were going to visit one of our customers and visited the customer the day before they were due and carried out our work – told the customer not to cancel them but simply turn them away when they arrived – hope it wasted their day – they want to play with fire then we will use flame-throwers!! Have already tossed them out of a number of our other customers and have also re-tested some of their work which is an absolute disgrace – they actually tested 100plus items at one place in less than an hour and expected to get paid – some of our customers have actually refused to pay their bills because of they way they felt they had been duped. Had a big barney on the phone with their Operations Manager about their tactics but he was just too arrogant to be concerned and simply said “Sue me then” so it shows you the sort of people they are. Lower than a snakes belly? Certainly not – more lower than a mole’s hole would be more appropriate!!

    • http://www.pattestnow.co.uk Grant Foster

      RE Stevie Gee,s comment about the Council – makes sense in a way – go for the cheapest – yeah but they usually they waste millions of our money for no apparent reason on consultants etc!!!! It seems proper PAT testers lose out EVERY TIME!!!! Those Public Sector guys just dont make sense

      Good for you re the company in the North – maybe reporting to major bodies is a waste of time because they are not interested – try Matt Allbright and the consumer revenge gang – Rogue Traders!

  • Stevie Gee

    Hi Jason and all you Guys,

    What a great blog site this is!

    Good to see that we are all having similar experiences and some new PAT Testing people coming on board – hope they are not lowering their prices just to get the work because it will be difficult to put your prices up to the level that you need to pay all your expenses including holidays and Christmas – there were some poor PAT Testers last Christmas who lowered their prices so much during the year and shopped for presents at the Pound Shop!

    Heard a story the other day about a PAT Tester in an office block who left his PAT Test machine at home so he simply went to his car and utilised his SATNAV and began tapping away and making allsorts of noises with it and then labelling the appliances. All was fine until the machine suddenly chirpped up “Recalculating” and exposed him!

    By the way have you heard of the Guild of Portable Appliance Testers? They have a website at http://www.patguild.com – only problem is there is no clue as to who is running this “Guild” could be someones Grandmother for all I know. No contact address, no phone numbers, no particular e-mail address – seems like a good idea by someone to form an association of PAT Testers but if it is just one man and his dog then I would be a bit dubious about joining. If you are a member can you let me know who is running this show? I particularly like the way they will expell any member who has two complaints made against them – not harsh enough, I would take away his dinner money as well!

    Seriously though we DO need something like this for ALL genuine honest PAT Testers, I noted that DAVE J above wants to join forces and REVOLT – what better way to get our own back on the Cowboys and “Nationwide” customer stealers than to have such an organisation where we can weed out the non-conformists and refuse them membership. I am ready to subscribe to anyone wishing to form such an association providing it is ligitimate. So whoever is running the Guild of Portable Appliance Testers can they make themselves known publically, it is something we need but let’s all get together and do it for all the right reasons. I have got an empty office and and secretarial support just waiting to support the cause rather than just talk about it – Is NOW the time?

  • Mike W

    Hi Stevie, I have just had a quick search on the “patguild” and it seems that it is the work of a Simon Grogan from a company called Plug Check, if you google plug check there is 2 companies, the one you want is the one that states in his tag line “PAT Testing from 75p per item!” Need I say any more (rolls eyes)

  • http://www.pattestnow.co.uk Grant Foster

    Have looked at the Guild website – totally void of area or address details, I smell a rat. Also report that businesses nearby also had random emails from Reaction Group or PAT Pro stating that they are an electrical company operating in (village or town near you)They claim to be local: “Because we operate locally in the area, we can usually offer our clients substantial savings on both PAT & fixed wire testing” Hmmm. I also have details stating they target their engineers to do 300 tests a day. Do they only do comms rooms then?
    This sort of thing as well as companies ringing up your customers saying : we did your PAT testing last time” is wearing a bit thin. I would happily join a forum with Stevie Gee but we have to accept legitimate competition, and this is healthy – it is a matter of stamping out illegal practice and that is difficult to prove.

  • http://www.patguild.com Simon Grogan

    The guild of PAT Testers is my website. I started it with the goal of improving the quality of PAT testing, but who can know if it will reach that intended goal. If you read the code of practice potential members have to agree to before they can join you’ll see they have to agree to be testing according to the IET COP and not to have hidden charges. If anyone has anything they would like to see as criteria to join let me know and I will consider adding it to the criteria.

    Potential members also have to pass a test based on the IET COP. This stage has already caught a couple of people out. You wouldn’t believe how poor the knowledge is of some so called PAT testers. Not even knowing how many watts in a KW, or what fuse a 1.5KW heater would need!

    You are quite correct that I also run PlugCheck PAT Testing. Whilst my prices may be lower than some I still uphold a high standard of testing. The most items I have tested in a day was 180 but more typically around 130. I know of a large national company that does 350-400 a day typically!

  • Dave J

    Thanks for the reply on this matter.
    Just one question and I hope you don’t take it the wrong way. Do you advertise ‘from 75p per test’

  • http://www.patguild.com Simon Grogan

    Hi Dave, Yes I do advertise at that rate although it is only available to companies within 10 miles of me with over 1000 items that are located in a close proximity to minimise time between tests.

  • Stevie Gee

    Hi Everyone,

    Nice to finally know that Simon Grogan is “man behind the plan.”

    Whilst I applaud his overall intentions I have to question how one person is going to change what is going on in this industry. The “Guild” is a good idea but for it to have any teeth it doesn’t just need members it needs people associated and running it who have influence to move things along – it needs people in high places who can raise questions in Parliament to bring laws into place to cut out the rougue traders and cowboys and enforce testers to take exams to be legally recognised as bonafide professional testers. Simply getting people to answer a few questions on the IET COP will not stop the cowboys or rougue traders becoming members – they may still be able to answer all the questions correctly but will that make them do the job properly as well? Some of these guys are smarter than you think! Even if you expell them from the Guild they will simply pop up somewhere else carrying on from where they left off – expulsion from the Guild will have no effect unless the Guild has some real teeth. Who actually inspects sample jobs of these members and their procedures? I doubt Simon has the time or the resources to be able to do it.

    Look at the GASSAFE scheme – It is ILLEGAL for anyone who is not properly qualified and doesn’t hold a registered GASSAFE certificate to even touch gas appliances and there are legally enforced penalties for anyone who does not adhere to these rules.

    There are also rules for Electricians on what they can and can’t do some have to train for three years or more to get their qualifications (17th edition Part P etc).

    The C&G 2377 qualification is hardly worth the paper it is written on – I know people who have got this qualification who still don’t know how to test properly – you can take this test without any prior experience of PAT Testing or without any knowledge of electricity and within TWO DAYS you are a qualified PAT Tester!! What a lot of bull! The people who have these qulaifications have answered enough of the 30 questions correctly to qualify for the certificate – but what about the questions they answered wrongly? The C&G don’t even tell them what they got wrong!! They should be able to answer 100% of the questions to make the certificate/qualification more creditable. For instance they may know the correct fuse to put in a plug but do they know the difference between a class 1 and a class 2 appliance? They could actually get a C&G certificate even if they don’t know the difference because they only have to get an 80% pass rate to get it – that means they can get 6 of the most important questions wrong and still qualify because they know the BS number of a 13 amp plug rather than the difference between class 1 and class 2 appliances. All you guys who have got the C&G cert know how ridiculously easy it is to pass this course – yet it is the only one available in our industry – there lies a seroius flaw in the sytem to start with.

    With all due respect Simon your Guild, in it’s current format, will change absolutely nothing because we have to change what is required to become a PAT Tester in the first place and there lies the first hurdle to cross.

    Every PAT Tester should have to take a legally enforcable and more creditable examination and once they have passed they need to be a member of a recognised institution (NICEIC, NAPIT etc.) and they need to take out their own Public Liability Insurance. If they are then found to be negligent or irresponsible they can be suspended or struck off, just like Doctors.

    Now – how many cowboys would want to do that?

    A lot of you guys have your own opinions on how to clean up our industry – there are a few thousand PAT Testers out there but how many would there be if we pushed for more rigorous procedures to be a really qualified Professional Tester? I would estimate that possibly half would find other work – there would be a shortage of Professional Testers but they would earn a damn site more money because they would be better skilled and more in demand.

    Will it happen? Do you want it to happen? Have you got any better ideas?

    I am not here to change the world – all credit to Simon for his efforts to try something but he is not going to change things by himself either – who’s going to show us the way forward? Anyone else willing to chip in on this?

    I am away for a week so you won’t hear me preaching for a while – meanwhile God save Prince William and Kate Middleton for giving us an extra day off this month – I will probably lose more money because of them – bless their cotton briefs!

  • Dave J

    lost out to 50p a test now guy’s!!! That is a record!

    They can’t have long left these guy’s surely.

    • Stevie Gee

      Hi Dave,

      Let me know who they are I need some VERY CHEAP labour.

      I’ll even feed them with peanuts all day long if that’s what they are willing to work for.

      Bet if we checked their work we would be horrified at what we would find!

      Chin up mate – they will be holidaying at home and shopping at the pound shop this Christmas! When their motor breaks down they will be on their bikes.

      I also bet there is some idiot out there doing it even cheaper and putting everyone at risk.

  • Dave J

    Stevie gee, Brilliant!!

    Just a quick update, the customer that had received the 50p per test quote have rebuffed their interest in these peunut chomping monkey’s and come back to us!!

    There are still some decent customers out there seemingly.

    • Stevie Gee

      Dave J,

      Well done mate – do a good job – have a banter with the customer and he will remember you next time. It’s not always about how cheap you are – but how well you treat your customers goes along way.

      The only place those monkeys belong is in the Zoo!!

  • Mike W

    I also like to think that if you can have a bit of banter with them then they will remember you and book you back in no problem, we even have some customers that look forward to us coming back in :D

    • Stevie Gee

      Hi Mike,

      You got it mate – those monkey boys are miserable people because the only way they know how to do business is by cutting their prices and earning nothing, that would make me miserable!

      Us professionals are worth more because we know how to negotiate sensible prices and deal with customers professionally – try asking a solicitor for a discount when you need him – mine charges £180 an HOUR – now that would be nice if we could!

      Customers are people and not just cash generators – they would rather deal with decent honest people who have decent reputations and building a decent reputation is not by being the cheapest!

      Although we do have customers we lose simply on price we also have those that accept a cost of living rise of at least 5% per year for a good service.

      Come on you peanut chomping monkeys – I don’t hear any of you coming on this blog to support your dubious antics – because YOU know what you are doing is VERY WRONG!!!!

  • andykearns

    A lot of interesting posts since I last visited here which are frightening with regards to the underhanded practises that are going on down there.
    I think Stevie Gee has hit the nail on the head that for this industry to move forward it needs changing.
    Qualification certificates are far too easy to get and as he states with an 80% pass rate the serious questions are the ones that candidates could be answering incorrectly.(This is an open book exam as well-surely this shouldn’t be allowed)
    The guidelines and regs are too vague with the “competent person” approach. This needs changing but the qualification should be much harder.
    Unfortunately if not enough people are passing an exam they seem to make an easier “stepping stone” one such as the 2392-10 which defeats the object really. Would you want a GP performing brain surgery?
    I intend bombarding various ministers both up here and south of the border to this effect. Maybe if we all did the same someone may look at the problem.

    Regards

    Andy

  • http://www.pattestnow.co.uk Grant Foster

    On the subject of exams, it would be great if they were tougher and more comprehensive, but that in itself wont stop some of these large nationwide companies bussing in any old Tom Dick and Harry to do hundreds of tests a day on peanuts rate. They are not interested in whether they are qualifies. That practice simply wont a stop. Rather it would stop one man bands going in to do PAT testing which maybe wouldnt be so good.

    I blame partly the on site H/S people or facilities managers/office managers who also do not seem interested in who is doing what on their premises – but they are being told by their Finanace Managers to cut costs, and thats it. Same for schools they are all fighting for less budget.

    The major bodies need to wake up on this one, simply ticking boxes is not good enough.

  • Dave J

    I am with Grant on this one. I honestly don’t think the qualifications are really the problem here, as you shouldn’t need to be over qualified because let’s be honest it is not a particularly hard job to do. I do agree it seems silly that you can answer really important questions wrongly and still gain a pass so on that front something can be quite easily done to remedy that, but as we all know it is more about common sense in this industry than anything else, actually using senses and looking and feeling the appliance rather than ‘computer says yes/no’
    I truly beleive the onus really should land on the clients themselves and a more responsible take on health and safety rather than whatever they can do to cut costs, as we know cutting costs in this industry also means cutting a hell of a lot of corners.
    The only problem here is I have no solution to offer! My company too, is cutting as many costs as possible by way of trimming down phone bills, more stringent policies on fuel consumption, cheaper label suppliers etc etc so we have had to let other ‘suppliers’ go in a bid to save money. The difference is we are not putting anyones safety at risk by using a cheaper phone supplier!!
    This forum has been great for us all to communicate and vent some of our frustration but we really need some help here from some kind of ‘higher powers’ it just doesn’t seem like it will ever happen. It looks like we just have to ride it out and hope that the £1+ P.A.T test returns sooner rather than later!!!

  • http://www.jasonslater.co.uk Jason Slater

    Hi everyone, I have been putting together a page about Portable Appliance Testing and would appreciate your feedback on it, http://www.jasonslater.co.uk/tools/portable-appliance-testing/

  • http://www.whites-electrical.co.uk russty

    Just an update on the the Guild Of PAT Testers that Simon Grogan has invented!! The website dissapeard after a barrage on the electricains forum, seems this Simon Grogan was really a con artist taking peoples money.
    The link for anyone to take a look is:-

    http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk/pat-testing/33101-guild-pat-testers.html

  • Dave J

    Hi Guy’s

    A bit of a strange one this as I know this is not a job website but I am looking to start a large nationwide contract soon and I am after someone who can jump on our team for a few months, this will probably be a post until at least christmas time. I am looking for someone ideally based in the yorkshire area to travel around with a team of our guy’s?? If anyone know’s of anyone who would be interested I’d really appreciate it? either put up a post on here or get in touch with me at david@crown-forge.co.uk
    The post has been advertised on the job centre website and to my amazement we have had hardly any replies, certainly not from anyone with any qualifications. Here’s hoping that this is a sign that this saturated market has maybe getting back to normality?
    Thanks.

  • David jeffery

    BAPAT??

    Has anyone heard of this? I can only assume it is the brainchild of this blog??
    I received some info about it on seawards monthly e-shot. I will be attending the next meeting to find out more. Anyone with any info ??

  • Mike W

    Hi Guys, it seems that there is movement in getting a formal body for us guys which also seems to be getting backing from Seaward, I got the email from Seaward yesterday, it is a Facebook page at the moment and there is another meeting at Seawards offices in Peterlee on 4th July @ 10.00am, I would love to go but have work already booked in for that day, see what you think http://www.facebook.com/THEBAPATPAGE

  • Mike W

    Good on ya Dave, Let us know what it’s all about, if its getting some sort of backing from Seaward then hopefully it will have a bit of credibility, unlike The PAT Guild :D

  • paul

    i have just started pat testing after doing the course last year , i would like to know what the best way is to pat test a laptop and other low voltage equipment

    thanks

  • paul

    do i test the lead and adapter seperate

  • Dave J

    By the book, yes. All appliances with a detachable cord set should be tested seperately. I personally don’t see the need to especially on a class II appliance but it ticks the boxes and without wanting to sound crass, with the prices we have been forced to I don’t discourage an extra test from my lads.

  • Jogger

    I have read this forum with interest, i am employed by that company up north but only work a few days a week. Although 50p an appliance is not much, for me it is adequate because i have my other job to suppliment the rest of my bills etc. Their policy is to have you up and running asp and then getting on average 200+ tests a day. I have worked for 7 months now and have only twice reached that target and both times i actually worked approx 9 hours. I like to think i do a proper job in testing appliances and if i ever get problems i have the numbers of a few good PAT testing engineers who can advise me. I think somebody mentioned previously that you can’t tar everybody with the same brush and i have worked with people who just want to get as many test as possible to get more money.

    On the whole i do enjoy PAT testing you get to see and meet so many different people but the impression i get from a lot of these is that PAT testing a required and that the cheaper they can get the tests done the better it is for them in the long run. I actually had a guy follow me around counting how many appliances i have done and hoping that i never tested over 100 because he only had enough money for 100 tests lol.

    On a different not, if you have to check a laptop charger and power lead, what test would you do the AC Adapter?

  • http://www.sentinelevents.co.uk Colin B

    Glad to see my anger of dodgy testers is shared amongst others, I have recently added PAT testing as a service to my company and would like to offer a quality service. Offering quality does unfortunately mean higher prices so it is hard to compete with the 50p guys but I’d rather turn a job down than cut corners.

    I also see that it’s not always the testers fault that a job isn’t done correctly, the PAT exam is easy to pass on the day and most engineers I meet believe they do a great job, however on closer inspection they have almost no technical knowledge about what they are doing other than knowing the process and that the meter says YES or NO.

    I am currently developing a PDA type logging application for Android, this will allow me to use cheaper none logging meters and keep costs down. Would be interested to hear from anyone who has interest in this so I can gauge how worthwhile it is to make this system available to anyone.

    Great forum, keep on moaning about the monkeys coz it makes me feel better and will hopefully go somewhere towards a solution one day.

  • Stevie Gee

    Oh dear!
    Just heard the sorry news – Nationwide Electrical Safety have gone bust!
    This is a company with 70 full time PAT Testers – what are these guys going to do now?
    Not to worry…………
    The good news is that they have started up again as UK Safety Management!
    Hope those 70 guys/gals have all been re-employed!

    Why did such a big company go bust in the first place? Are there any clues in this blog?

  • Dave J

    Hi guys.

    Colin b, I use the cheaper ‘non mrnory’ testers and input data into a PDA which can be picked up quite cheap these days. I use a software called easypat made by a company called tysoft, give it a google I do recommend them. They are in the process of developing an android version, they also have acwindows 7 mobile version, but after trialling them I will definitely be sticking to the PDA version, it’s much quicker and also it was a problem using a smartphone for inputting data, as calls, texts and emails coming through were continuously disrupting our work!
    Nationwide gone bust?!?! Oh no that is awful news, especially when it means another 70 ‘engineers’ will come into the Market offering 60p testing!!

    • Stevie Gee

      Dave J, whatever are you saying! Surely these 70 “engineers” wouldn’t do such a thing!
      Any of you ex-Nationwide “engineers” reading this blog?
      What’s going on now? Have you been re-employed by UK Safety Mangement? Is it the same “Management” in charge?
      Let’s hear your views. We promise we won’t tell anyone.

  • Stevie Gee

    Well a few days gone by and no one from NES with a comment!

    I now need to vent some anger!

    NES have gone bust and set up as UK Safety Management – they have unpaid bills and creditors who have lost money dealing with them. But do you know how low this company have now sunk in my estimation – lower than a mole’s hole which is lower than a snakes belly!

    One of my customers has just copied me with an e-mail they received today from Nationwide Electrical Safety but using the e-mail address of UK Safety Management they then have the nerve to use the NES logo at the end of their e-mail!

    There is something drastically wrong with the system if this is considered to be legal – I shall be speaking with the administrators for NES first thing tomorrow!

  • http://www.ultimatepattesting.co.uk Dave W

    Good morning.After 30 years in the police service I have just started up a PAT testing business (self employed) and have been reading this forum with great interest. I’ve done City & Guilds 2377-12 & 11 but was disappointed at the actual practical content such as no real input on fixed appliances. Its tough going finding any jobs at the mo but am persisting with dropping in on letting agents with my details and networking wherever I can. Any advice I can get would be much appreciated. Do you get more work with the 110V equipment due to the recommended testing frequency for site equipment?

  • Dave J

    Unfortunately not. Not one of my customers has their 110v equipment tested to the recommended frequency, I think they just refuse to believe it no matter how many times I try to tell them even though every year I go to a joiners shop or builders/plumbers firm etc to do the P.A.T we fail on average around 10 appliances per roughly 100 tested! All quite nasty fails also, broken exposed cables, smashed plugs etc but they won’t have it!! I wish I had something more encouraging to say but it is really tough out there, at the risk of sounding patronising just keep looking.

    One thing I would ike to put out to you fellow P.A.T testers, I am currently having quite a lot of problems with the software we are using. We use ‘EastPat’ made by a company called Tysoft and unfortunately we have had lots of reports go missing from a number of different PDA’s/windows 7 phones. I would like to know does anybody else have any other software they would like to recommend? Obviously we use handheld testers and input all our testers in to handheld devices and I would like to keep it this way as it is a much more efficient way of testing compared to any other way I have done it. So any info regarding a mobile P.A.T software that anyone has had experience with would be greatly, greatly appreciated.
    Thanks.

  • Unhappy

    Hi
    I used to work for the company that were formally nationwide.
    They have re employed all engineers although the reson for liquidation seems a bit muddled.?
    You are expected to do 200 tests on a good day
    You must do a leakage test on all microwaves ( 8.00) and test all sockets on a site,(29.99) this is charged extra to what the customer agreed (You can imagine the arguments)
    Policy seemed to be, get in, test (?) as many as you can, get paid, get out, in as little time as possible.

    My concience got the better of me in the end

    • Stevie Gee

      Hey Unhappy Man,

      Thank you for being so honest!

      Hopefully you have found a job with a more honest company – if so I wish you all the best.

      This will be my last rant about NES (RIP) as this forum should be about more important issues.

      What I really want to know is how NES went bust owing unpaid taxes to the HMRC of nearly £1,500,000 and still managed to start trading again, almost immediately, under a different name? By the way some of those taxes included National Insurance contributions that the staff had already had deducted from their wages but never actually got paid to the Taxman!!

      Prove me wrong?

  • Dave J

    That’s disgusting mate.
    Not sure what else to say without swearing, that annoy’s me so much it’s unbelievable.

  • paul

    Hi

    What a thread, some interesting stuff. It seems that laptop power leads, xmas lights and so on cause a bit of confussion.

    As far as i’m aware DELL power packs are a little different in that they have an earth to the DC output. So an earth test (clip onto the output) will work.

  • http://www.yetiltd.co.uk Yeti Ltd Hull

    Hi guys,just stumbled upon this site,after searching pat test scams,good stuff,if i can input anything,i will,at mo bubbling,as constantly getting blown on price and daily,seeing previous pat companys,passing items which a year earlier where just as dangerous as when i recently inspected them,i try my best to do everything right nappit membership,trustmark .liability insurence,calibration,17 th edition.2377 etc.and still these guys ruin it for us all,gave quote on office last week @1 per item was blown by 50% told customer it would take me approx 3 hours for 50 items,was told company they use only takes 45 mins,hey i need more experience.did i get the job NO,hey ho,not convinced that we will triumph against these guys,will happily become a member of any body which promotes an association which will benefit us genuine companys,dont even mind a subscription,please contact me if i can be of any help.good guys keep on doing what you doing